To Bevel Or Not To Bevel...

[pakalbaugh]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking in this forum for a year now while I learn the craft of braiding kangaroo leather. I've read, with interest, the opinions on whether or not to bevel . I bought a beveler from YKnot Lace over a year ago but was afraid to try beveling because I was sure I would ruin a bunch of leather before I figured it out. Yesterday I got my courage up and decided to give it a try. Although I'm still in the learning curve as far as beveling goes (and also keeping the tension even on 8 strands :-), I found it was not as hard as I thought it would be. I decided to do an experiment to see the difference in quality between beveled and unbeveled. Here are the results: (The pink collar is beveled, the brown is unbeveled).

You can also see that I must have missed beveling one of the light pink strands (it sort of sticks up above the rest) which I realized after I started braiding. Since this was an experiment I decided to leave it as is. I started thinking it might be interesting to try leaving a couple of the strands unbeveled on purpose to add some relief/texture as a design element on the piece.

Pat K.

Juneau, AK

[rcsaddles]

Do you roll your project when you are done? I think if you put it under a board or a hard back book and roll it on a firm surface it will help the lace lay together and be smoother. Maybe you do this and it is just the picture makes it look like it is not. Your braiding is looking good.

[pakalbaugh]

Yes, I do roll after I'm done braiding. This one was rolled on a counter with a piece of cardboard under it. I usually roll with my hands, although I have used a piece of wood to roll also.. I think what you might be seeing is that one strand that I don't think got beveled that sticks up.

Pat K

Juneau, AK

[entiendo]

I have been known to put sit on the board and roll my pieces with springfield leather. Your hand and cardboard isn't quite enough. You want to roll it between two strong pieces ( and clean) of wood. Though I have heard of people using other things to accomplish this task.

[HorsehairBraider]

When I was younger I did not have a way to bevel so I never did! The horses never cared one way or the other. I think it is a matter of taste.

I've rolled things on my (first well cleaned off) kitchen counter, but I do tend to braid smaller things. I like doing it with my foot but some of my stuff is so small I can't do it that way. You do what you can and what works.

[pakalbaugh]

I agree that beveling or not beveling is a matter of taste. I can get Springfield pre-cut leather pretty smooth just by rolling without beveling. But I wanted to see how much difference there was between beveled and non-beveled items because I've heard people claim that you have to bevel to have a finished look. Here is another test example.

The beveled one on the right is smaller in width and feels smaller but smoother. I'm still not convinced I like it better but it is visibly different and feels different too. I wonder if beveling weakens the leather and by how much? I know my beveling skills aren't all that great yet but a few times while I was beveling, I ended up taking off more than I wanted to. I definitely need more practice on beveling.

Pat K

Juneau, AK

[pakalbaugh]

For some reason, the image in the middle of the post displays much smaller than the one that is under "Attached Thumbnails". Don't know why...sorry.

Pat K

Juneau, AK

[entiendo]

If you want smooth beautiful pieces you bevel and split. That's what most of us work for, smooth detailed pieces. If you like it a different way, certainly nothing wrong with that but it's not the traditional way, again, nothing wrong with that. Kangaroo is a beautiful strong leather, even springfield's, if you buy it I would assume that is what you are working toward; smooth detailed pieces. Splitting and beveling will matter even more as you learn to tye knots and move onto 6, 8, 12 plait or more.

Oh and not beveling lighter color where the rough out shows will get really dirty and it can't really be cleaned like the smooth. I have seen many 4 plait dog leads not split, beveled or rolled that did not stay nice at all.

On those springfield leathers I take a whole lot off beveling. Just be sure to keep your blade sharp, those leathers are terrible on blades. You want the leather to move smoothly through the bevel. don't be afraid to use a little bit of feel while beveling rather than depending comepletely on the guide on the beveler.

[pakalbaugh]

I have been known to put sit on the board and roll my pieces with springfield leather. Your hand and cardboard isn't quite enough. You want to roll it between two strong pieces ( and clean) of wood. Though I have heard of people using other things to accomplish this task.

Going back to rolling...Yesterday I braided a 4', 8 strand braid. I tried rolling it on the counter without the cardboard under it and rolling with a piece of wood on top. I could not get it to roll! It just kept slipping. In fact, I couldn't get it to roll using the wood piece even with the cardboard under it to give it some bite. I've used the board on top before and it's worked so I'm not sure why it didn't with this one (although I don't think I've ever tried with an 8 strand braid). I ended up rolling it with my hands on the carboard with the counter beneath. Anyone have any tips on rolling on smooth surfaces (like the counter) with a piece of wood? This leash is just not rolling well and also not smoothing out as well as others have during and after rolling even though it is beveled. I can't figure out what the problem might be.

Thanks

Pat K

Juneau, AK

[pakalbaugh]

If you want smooth beautiful pieces you bevel and split. That's what most of us work for, smooth detailed pieces. If you like it a different way, certainly nothing wrong with that but it's not the traditional way, again, nothing wrong with that. Kangaroo is a beautiful strong leather, even springfield's, if you buy it I would assume that is what you are working toward; smooth detailed pieces. Splitting and beveling will matter even more as you learn to tye knots and move onto 6, 8, 12 plait or more.

Oh and not beveling lighter color where the rough out shows will get really dirty and it can't really be cleaned like the smooth. I have seen many 4 plait dog leads not split, beveled or rolled that did not stay nice at all.

On those springfield leathers I take a whole lot off beveling. Just be sure to keep your blade sharp, those leathers are terrible on blades. You want the leather to move smoothly through the bevel. don't be afraid to use a little bit of feel while beveling rather than depending comepletely on the guide on the beveler.

I get what you are saying and of course, I want my braiding to be as good as I can get it which is why I forced myself to start beveling. I can see a huge difference after beveling on a 4 strand braid and will probably bevel these from now on. Not very much difference in smoothness on the 8 strand (haven't tried beveling a six strand yet). On the small 4 strand piece I beveled, I did not use a core under it (it was just a test) so I'm wondering if not having a core helps smoothing the braid, if it's just the 8 strand herringbone pattern that makes it harder to get it smooth, or if I'm just not taking enough of the angle off when I'm beveling. Hard to know how much to take off and I've tried erring on the side of less, rather than more.

How often do you change blades?

One thing I didn't like on the four strand beveled test I did was that the braid became much thinner. The four strand is already a very thin braid to begin with and I prefer a heftier braid myself. But I DID like the look of it beveled as the strands sank right down into the braid.

Just some thoughts...I'll post a pic of the beveled 8 strand braid I did yesterday later on today once I finish it.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate everyone's help figuring out the details!

Pat K

Juneau, AK

[entiendo]

Hard to explain....hmm, completely normal with Springfield leather. What I do to get it started is hold on to the end of the piece and help roll it or turn it, with my hand, while I am rolling it with a piece of wood with the other hand. Once it is mostly round you should be able to finish rolling without helping.

[entiendo]

Yes beveling will make smaller, splitting even smaller than that. Use more strings if you want larger diameters, like 6 or 8 plait. Or try some calf hide. My calipers measure about 3.5 mm on a 4 strand braid.

Cores do not help you smooth the braiding in my experience.

I change the position of my blade when the leather does not run through smoothly. That is about all I can tell you there. If it helps I buy 200 blades at a time for my cutter and beveled, my splitter takes a different blade.

[pakalbaugh]

Thanks for the tips on rolling and the comments on cores and blades, entiendo!

Here is pic of the finished braid (still not a finished piece). I'm kind of interested in whether I'm taking enough off when beveling (if you can tell from this shot) and/or if braiding very tightly over a core might be part of the issue..

Thanks!

Pat K

Juneau, AK

Edited July 26, 2013 by pakalbaugh

[entiendo]

That's not bad at all, looks to me like it just needs a bit more rolling.

Are you beveling 30 or 45 degrees? 45 will help you skive off extra thickness if you don't have a splitter. Helps a bit I think. .

It is a little twisted though so be sure you are securing your plaiting while you braid. Sometime tying it on a rope can be counterproductive. try clamping the top of the piece down so it does not twist on it's own while you are braiding...at least with the 8 plait. .

[Leatherpownder]

To roll I use a brown paper bag on a table with a 1' x 3" x 16" piece of hardwood and take some of a paper bag and wrap it and secure with masking tape. Then roll. When the soap builds up so the work won't roll change your paper.

[rawhide1]

Leatherpownder

I'm curious what does the brown bag do.

Thanks, Mike

[Peter T]

When my work is slipping when I roll it, I sometimes use brown paper. I find it gives some extra grip for rolling, making it easier especially down the finer end of a whip. I have a whole roll of it and just tear off a length and put it over my board (a 2 1/2' by 1 1/2' piece of laminex kitchen benchtop) and tuck the ends of the paper under the sides of the board.

I have also tried using Rosin (the powder that sportspeople put on their hands for extra grip). A bit off a light dusting on the board a roll away. I prefer the brown paper, but I know others that prefer the Rosin.

Pete

[pakalbaugh]

Someone else (not in this forum) also suggested a paper bag on the counter and on the wood and I've tried it but not recently. I think the problem here is that I am braiding too tight so it won't roll and I'm using a core that may not be the right size or the right material. I have always heard "pull it tight" so I took it literally and pulled as tight as I could. On this particular leash, I actually pulled each string each time I brought one around the back so this one is ultra tight. Last night I was reading David Morgan's book (Braiding Fine Leather - it just arrived in the mail on Friday) and in the section where he talks about rolling the leather, it states that if it won't roll, it's braided too tight. So, I think I still need to work on how much tension/pull I give the strands. Morgan also shows, step by step, how to braid and when to pull which he calls "The Mechanics of Braiding". I'm sure I've probably gotten into some bad habits but I'm going to try his method and see if I can switch to his.

I highly recommend David Morgan's book. It's helped me understand and answer some of the questions I've had about braiding leather along with the people in this forum who have helped put the pieces together.

Pat K

Juneau, AK

[pakalbaugh]

That's not bad at all, looks to me like it just needs a bit more rolling.

Are you beveling 30 or 45 degrees? 45 will help you skive off extra thickness if you don't have a splitter. Helps a bit I think. .

It is a little twisted though so be sure you are securing your plaiting while you braid. Sometime tying it on a rope can be counterproductive. try clamping the top of the piece down so it does not twist on it's own while you are braiding...at least with the 8 plait. .

I have only tried beveling at 30 degrees. I might try 40 next time.

I got David Morgan's book, Braiding Fine Leather, in the mail Friday. In it he says that beveling for six and eight strand braids is done by taking one corner off the underside and the opposite corner off the top side (parallelogram) which is different than anything I've seen in other books or online and different than what he recommends for four strand braids (which is what I've always seen...both corners off the underside are beveled). It makes some sense because the six and eight strand braids lay a little differently than the four strand when braided. I'm not sure how it works in actual practice, though. I need to read more to figure out how to set the strands up in prep to braid with this type of bevel and do a short test to see if it really helps. Also not sure how this will work with pre-cut lace.

Pat K

Juneau, AK

[entiendo]

David Morgan didn't work with Springfield leather, I would not loosen your braid, and your cores are fine too. However with 1/8" string you can go up to 3/16 inch core if I remember correctly. The herringbone braid is actually a square braid so if you have a tiny core you are rolling corners round so that is part of it as well. 8 plaits can be rolled round, trust me, you will just have to do some experimenting with something that works for you.

Yes you can bevel as David Morgan suggests but I would not do that with kangaroo. Especially kangaroo with a finish. I did it like that for a long time and it looks nicer the reverse like he suggest for 4 plait. And let me tell you I went through a whole heck of a lot of colored string when I did it that way. It is really hard! That finish is also even worse on blades so you can go about a foot and then you need to move the blade.

Edited July 28, 2013 by entiendo