Beginner Question About Grooving/ Sewing

[Jasonlboyd]

If I understand correctly, most people make their stitching groove while tooling the leather. If you stitch it on front and back, how do you ensure that your groves will line up in assembly? Do I just need more practice, or am I missing something simple? It almost seems like it would be easier to groove front, punch holes, then groove the back, then finish after sewing.

Is this the proper procedure? Groove, finish, glue, sew?

[El Zipster]

Personally I assemble glue and sand before grooving.

Cheers

Zip

[katsass]

FWIW from the old grump; If you ask a question on here, you're likely to end up with multiple answers -- different --- but all correct. My advise would be for you to purchase the book "The Art of Hand Sewing Leather", You can get it from almost any of the suppliers on this site. READ it, and follow the instructions therein. Again, FWIW, I was taught to hand stitch by a WWI Cavalry Soldier, and a harder taskmaster there never was.. Take from my comments what you wish -- after all, you didn't pay anything for them. Mike

[TXAG]

Again, FWIW, I was taught to hand stitch by a WWI Cavalry Soldier, and a harder taskmaster there never was.. Take from my comments what you wish -- after all, you didn't pay anything for them. Mike

I'd be interested in hearing how you hand stitch the way the WWI Cav soldier taught you...

[katsass]

Well TX, the biggest portion of my education initially revolved around use of the awl, as well as how to maintain the damned thing. I'm inarticulate enough that I balk a attempting to explain those lessons. I will say that most folks punch too big a stitching hole. Now it may be considered a major transgression by many purist, but I feel that mastering the use of an awl takes time and effort, and that punching holes for stitching may, and can be done by other methods. Many folks use a Dremel tool or a drill press to get the holes done in a reasonably proper manner - after all, they are nothing more than a bunch of uniformly sized and spaced voids in the leather. If using the Dremel or the drill press method, use a drill of no larger than 3/64" -- 1/16" is too big. You can also use a small brad or nail chucked up in the press - No larger than a 1 1/2" X #16 (skinny little beggars) OK, you have a pot-load of holes in your leather and you want to stitch. I use a #1 sized needle, many will use a bigger one purchased from Tandy - 'taint a good idea. Start with your long piece of thread with a needle on each end by sticking a needle into the first hole. The damned thing will not be forced through by hand - if you can push or pull it through, the hole is too damned big. Pull it through with a pair of smooth-jawed pliers -- and DON'T work the needle up and down lest you bust the damned thing. Pull the thread till it centers up the thread in the hole. Insert the second needle from the opposite

side of that first hole, being careful not to skewer the thread already in the hole. Pull that thread up 'till you have a small loop on that side of your masterpiece. Now, look at where the thread from the first needle is laying in relationship to the loop - either inside the loop, or outside. It actually makes no difference which it is, AS LONG AS ALL SUBSEQUENT STITCHES ARE IDENTICAL --- EITHER INSIDE OR OUTSIDE. NOW, RETURN TO THE FIRST NEEDLE AND STUFF IT IN THE NEXT HOLE. YOU MUST ALWAYS PUT THE FIRST NEEDLE THROUGH THE HOLE ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE PROJECT. First needle through, snug it up and pull back toward yourself a bit. Second needle from the opposite side making sure that the thread is inside or outside the loop as was the first one/-- snug the stitch up tight. Go for it. The biggest thing is to remember that each stitch must be done exactly as the preceding one. While old Jeff taught me, he brought into question my intelligence, my hearing, my ability to follow directions, and my ability to do anything correctly in that I was left handed. Frankly it's one hell of a lot easier to show someone how to do it than it is to write it down. I hope this is at least a bit clearer than mud. But as I said, each step must follow the preceding ---- exactly. Mike

Edited September 18, 2013 by katsass

[Jasonlboyd]

Well TX, the biggest portion of my education initially revolved around use of the awl, as well as how to maintain the damned thing. I'm inarticulate enough that I balk a attempting to explain those lessons. I will say that most folks punch too big a stitching hole. Now it may be considered a major transgression by many purist, but I feel that mastering the use of an awl takes time and effort, and that punching holes for stitching may, and can be done by other methods. Many folks use a Dremel tool or a drill press to get the holes done in a reasonably proper manner - after all, they are nothing more than a bunch of uniformly sized and spaced voids in the leather. If using the Dremel or the drill press method, use a drill of no larger than 3/64" -- 1/16" is too big. You can also use a small brad or nail chucked up in the press - No larger than a 1 1/2" X #16 (skinny little beggars) OK, you have a pot-load of holes in your leather and you want to stitch. I use a #1 sized needle, many will use a bigger one purchased from Tandy - 'taint a good idea. Start with your long piece of thread with a needle on each end by sticking a needle into the first hole. The damned thing will not be forced through by hand - if you can push or pull it through, the hole is too damned big. Pull it through with a pair of smooth-jawed pliers -- and DON'T work the needle up and down lest you bust the damned thing. Pull the thread till it centers up the thread in the hole. Insert the second needle from the opposite

side of that first hole, being careful not to skewer the thread already in the hole. Pull that thread up 'till you have a small loop on that side of your masterpiece. Now, look at where the thread from the first needle is laying in relationship to the loop - either inside the loop, or outside. It actually makes no difference which it is, AS LONG AS ALL SUBSEQUENT STITCHES ARE IDENTICAL --- EITHER INSIDE OR OUTSIDE. NOW, RETURN TO THE FIRST NEEDLE AND STUFF IT IN THE NEXT HOLE. YOU MUST ALWAYS PUT THE FIRST NEEDLE THROUGH THE HOLE ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE PROJECT. First needle through, snug it up and pull back toward yourself a bit. Second needle from the opposite side making sure that the thread is inside or outside the loop as was the first one/-- snug the stitch up tight. Go for it. The biggest thing is to remember that each stitch must be done exactly as the preceding one. While old Jeff taught me, he brought into question my intelligence, my hearing, my ability to follow directions, and my ability to do anything correctly in that I was left handed. Frankly it's one hell of a lot easier to show someone how to do it than it is to write it down. I hope this is at least a bit clearer than mud. But as I said, each step must follow the preceding ---- exactly. Mike

Very informative. Let me ask, how to you keep your needle threaded if the holes are this tight? I know my holes are much larger than they could/should be, but if I don't do this, it seems like every 4 or 5 holes I have pulled the thread out of the needle and I am trimming to re-thread! Also, if I want to order thread, how do I know what size to order?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Jasonlboyd

[katsass]

Jason, first off I use only natural (linen) thread, well waxed, and usually size #1 needles -- once in a while I may use a size #0 -- but never anything larger than that. First, thin the first couple of inches of thread end down by pulling it against the blade of a knife. Re-wax as necessary. Twist the end into a nice pointy appearance and stuff that pointy end through the needle's eye, extending only about 1/2" to !" beyond the eye. Lay the needle along the main portion of your thread and at the point the tip of the needle touches the thread, poke the needle right through the thread -- WITHOUT BREAKING THE THREAD. I usually twist the thread counter to it's normal configuration to open the stuff up. Pull the long portion up to the needle's eye, and then pull the pointy end out so that the two portions of thread join at the eye of the needle. Re-wax and twist tight. Now, when pulling the thread through the leather, pull the needle with pliers through the leather, don't wiggle it all over hell and half of Texas, use the thumb of the hand not using the pliers, as a fulcrum to pry against if necessary. Once through, pull to tighten the thread by pulling just the thread -- the needle is NOT a handle to pull the thread tight. You can also open the hole to make things a bit easier (if drilled or punched with a nail) with a good stitching awl. Be aware that the awl must be held and used in the proper orientation to the preceding hole and the edge of the project. This however may be easier for someone starting out to perform while still maintaining even spacing on the back side of your project. (It's much easier to show than to explain, and if you don't do it right, I can yell at you -- venting, as they say). Also to many it seems a bit uncomfortable, just as pulling each stitch tight will ultimately be uncomfortable until you have created a callous on your little fingers. The reason I suggest that a beginner to stitching use a drill press or Dremel (initially) is that I feel it is more reasonable for the newbie to accomplish some reasonably decent stitching early on, rather than work hard just to end up with a (basically) ruined project because of rotten awl use. Learning to use an awl properly takes a lot of practice, time, and more than a few poked fingers and thumbs - which in turn bleed all over your project, adding stains that can only be covered with black dye. Hope this is more clear than the Great Grey-green, Greasy Limpopo River. Mike

P.S. The easiest way to get satisfactory thread for hand stitching at this point is to order "Waxed Linen Thread for Hand Stitching" from Springfield Leather. I would not order a similar type from Tandy - but that's just me.

Edited September 18, 2013 by katsass

[TXAG]

Actually, I think I was able to follow almost all of that! Thanks for sharing these tips...this kind of experience is very valuable to those of us starting out.

I was stitching a project a while back and the awl kept getting pulled out of my awl handle. I had the collet tighted as tightly as I could, but...the leather won.

I also found that it was easier to push the needle through with a palm...mine has a metal plate on it you can use to push the needle through with...and I did end up using pliers to pull it through the other side.

I will keep your advice in mind on my next project...it sounds like the way you lace is different than how I learned and your way probably yields a better-looking end product due to the consistancy in each stitch (if done correctly).

Thanks again for taking time to share this info with us...

[katsass]

TX, thanks for the kind words, and you are most welcome. Mike

Edited September 19, 2013 by katsass