Another Holster Lining Question.

[vaalpens]

I apologize if this question has been answered many times before, but I know the astute members of this forum will be willing to provide guidance, comments and critique where necessary.

My next project will be another holster, but this time I want to use two pieces of leather back to back to provide some extra stiffness and a better looking inside of the holster. I know this is supposed to be a holster with a lining, but I am looking at it as a piece of leather with two smooth sides. My questions are not about the type or weight of the leather, but rather how to work with the two pieces of leather. Following are some of the decisions I have already made and some tasks I am researching to decide how it should be approached:

• This will not be a pancake holster, but more like a hip or avenger style holster where the leather is folder around the gun.
  
• I will probably use two pieces of 5/6 oz or combining 5/6 oz with something heavier
  
• The outside will be dyed with an oil dye, but I'm not sure if the inside should be dyed or just oiled with neatsfoot oil and then finished.
  
• Now the big question; Is it better to just glue the two pieces together and then just use it as one piece, or is it better to bend/fold the pieces around the gun before gluing it together. I am just concerned that if I handle it as one piece the the outside will maybe stretch more, or the inside will show wrinkles. Then again my thought is that if you fold the two pieces separately, then the gluing is more difficult and maybe won't have a good enough bond.
  

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[Red Cent]

Should get a bunch of answers. However, your questions are the basics of holster building. I use 8-9 for the outer and 4-5 for the lining. I skive both pieces in the fold of the holster. I glue them together, do the beveling, sanding, and edge finishing, then sew. You may get a wrinkle or two inside but that is the usual.

Some handstitchers fold then glue then sitich.

You might want to read about making patterns. It wasn't mentioned in your post. And if the DVDs of John Bianchi making a holster and gunbelt is in the budget, I would highly reccommend them. $50.00. Try Ebay.

[katsass]

From the grump: Two pieces of 5/6oz will be plenty. when glued up they will produce a piece of leather of 10/12 oz weight - more than enough for all but the largest and heaviest of weapons. Use a good quality of contact cement (I use Weldwood Contact Cement). Cut one piece of leather carefully to as close to the exact pattern as possible, then cut a mirror image slightly larger all around than the original. Smear the contact cement on the flesh sides of each piece of the dead cow skin. When the surface of each is JUST SLIGHTLY tacky, align the two pieces, the smaller (carefully cut) one atop the larger. I use a piece of wax paper between the two pieces, align them and gently ease the paper out - a little at a time while ensuring a good physical bond by pressing the top piece down onto the bottom piece. When completely stuck together, roll the piece flat with something akin to mamma's rolling pin. Put some umph to it as you roll. If using her kitchen necessity, this is best done while the dear lady is out of the residence, or at least elsewhere, for a substantial time period. Finally, find a stack of heavy books, a piece of polished granite or marble (preferably NOT from a headstone) or any SMOOTH surfaced item or combination of items, then lay those on top of your bonded leather piece. NOW, this is critical!!! leave the damned thing alone until tomorrow!!! NO peaky, no messing with, --- just let it lay there all alone. After it has rested over night (to ensure the chemical bond between the two pieces) just trim to ensure it appears as a single piece of leather with two smooth sides. NOW -- treat it as just what it is -- a single piece of smooth dead cow skin. Don't try to fold the damned thing and make the 'lining' fit - just ain't gonna happen. Being well bonded it should not show wrinkles, and if it does, they'll be inconsequential. Merry Easter Eggs -- have fun. Mike

Edited November 9, 2013 by katsass

[vaalpens]

Should get a bunch of answers. However, your questions are the basics of holster building. I use 8-9 for the outer and 4-5 for the lining. I skive both pieces in the fold of the holster. I glue them together, do the beveling, sanding, and edge finishing, then sew. You may get a wrinkle or two inside but that is the usual.

Some handstitchers fold then glue then sitich.

You might want to read about making patterns. It wasn't mentioned in your post. And if the DVDs of John Bianchi making a holster and gunbelt is in the budget, I would highly reccommend them. $50.00. Try Ebay.

Thanks for the information, and it looks like I will get a bunch of information. This is the good part. I will read all the advice, learn from it, and then pick the a little bit from everybody's feedback and apply it to my project. I know I need to study up a bit on patterns, but for now I am creating my own and learning from it. Hopefully in the near future I will take that next step and try and learn from the masters outside of this forum.

[vaalpens]

From the grump: Two pieces of 5/6oz will be plenty. when glued up they will produce a piece of leather of 10/12 oz weight - more than enough for all but the largest and heaviest of weapons. Use a good quality of contact cement (I use Weldwood Contact Cement). Cut one piece of leather carefully to as close to the exact pattern as possible, then cut a mirror image slightly larger all around than the original. Smear the contact cement on the flesh sides of each piece of the dead cow skin. When the surface of each is JUST SLIGHTLY tacky, align the two pieces, the smaller (carefully cut) one atop the larger. I use a piece of wax paper between the two pieces, align them and gently ease the paper out - a little at a time while ensuring a good physical bond by pressing the top piece down onto the bottom piece. When completely stuck together, roll the piece flat with something akin to mamma's rolling pin. Put some umph to it as you roll. If using her kitchen necessity, this is best done while the dear lady is out of the residence, or at least elsewhere, for a substantial time period. Finally, find a stack of heavy books, a piece of polished granite or marble (preferably NOT from a headstone) or any SMOOTH surfaced item or combination of items, then lay those on top of your bonded leather piece. NOW, this is critical!!! leave the damned thing alone until tomorrow!!! NO peaky, no messing with, --- just let it lay there all alone. After it has rested over night (to ensure the chemical bond between the two pieces) just trim to ensure it appears as a single piece of leather with two smooth sides. NOW -- treat it as just what it is -- a single piece of smooth dead cow skin. Don't try to fold the damned thing and make the 'lining' fit - just ain't gonna happen. Being well bonded it should not show wrinkles, and if it does, they'll be inconsequential. Merry Easter Eggs -- have fun. Mike

Mike, thanks again for providing some colorful insight in how you work with two pieces of leather. I have seen the work you have done and has confidence your method is something I want to try. One thing I did not mention is that this time I will make sure the trigger guard is covered. I know you have suggested that before and this will be the first time that I incorporate a covered trigger guard. My design is getting there, and I am just trying to finalize my belt loop. Need to decide if I want a one piece that is folded back, or maybe a separate piece fastened with something other than stitching. I am also seeing if I can incorporate the usage of tee-nuts, chicago screws or copper rivets in my design, just to try something else. This is still a learning experience.

[katsass]

Val --- You must have gotten me mixed up with some other guy, in that I don't strongly advocate even a partially covered trigger guard. Many do, and also consider it totally proper to cover the entire trigger guard. One of my favorite holsters is the "Tom Threeperson" design, (if you don't know what that is, here's one that I made as a BBQ rig for the vintage S&W wheelgun in it) and those holsters based on that design - it ain't got a bit of the trigger guard covered and is arguably the fastest wheelgun holster made. I do not particularly care for a 'safety' strap on many of my holsters, but again, that's a personal feeling, or requirement that I work out with my customer. I will say that it may be wise to cover the thing on some pistols, and even for a specific shooter (person), at least in some instances, but overall to me it doesn't matter much. It comes down to what the customer wants,needs and is comfortable with. As to belt loops, an integral loop will always be stronger and allow less movement than a separately attached one and will wear better. In them there is much less possibility of torn, or worn stitching. NOW, as to rivets, t-nuts, Chicago screws, etc. I try to absolutely remove them from my vocabulary, thoughts, and/or consideration when talking about or am considering a holster. There are places for these things -- even in leather work, but generally a holster just isn't one of them. If you look at a well made holster, you see none of those - except where the tension is adjustable (and I'm not much in favor of "adjustable" holsters) or on a paddle holster. Now look at one of those "one size fits all" rigs purchased at Wally World that has a cute little rivet at the top of the welt. Looks cheap as hell because your logical mind tells you that the maker can't even stitch well enough to keep the damned thing together so your shooter won't fall out, and on top of that, it's appearance should bring to mind questions about the quality of the leather used. To me, in general, rivets etc. do not belong in. on, or around a holster, BUT I'm just a poor, grumpy, opinionated, old man, and there are those that fail to see the logic in my thoughts. Mike

Edited November 9, 2013 by katsass

[vaalpens]

Val --- You must have gotten me mixed up with some other guy, in that I don't strongly advocate even a partially covered trigger guard. Many do, and also consider it totally proper to cover the entire trigger guard. One of my favorite holsters is the "Tom Threeperson" design, (if you don't know what that is, here's one that I made as a BBQ rig for the vintage S&W wheelgun in it) and those holsters based on that design - it ain't got a bit of the trigger guard covered and is arguably the fastest wheelgun holster made. I do not particularly care for a 'safety' strap on many of my holsters, but again, that's a personal feeling, or requirement that I work out with my customer. I will say that it may be wise to cover the thing on some pistols, and even for a specific shooter (person), at least in some instances, but overall to me it doesn't matter much. It comes down to what the customer wants,needs and is comfortable with. As to belt loops, an integral loop will always be stronger and allow less movement than a separately attached one and will wear better. In them there is much less possibility of torn, or worn stitching. NOW, as to rivets, t-nuts, Chicago screws, etc. I try to absolutely remove them from my vocabulary, thoughts, and/or consideration when talking about or am considering a holster. There are places for these things -- even in leather work, but generally a holster just isn't one of them. If you look at a well made holster, you see none of those - except where the tension is adjustable (and I'm not much in favor of "adjustable" holsters) or on a paddle holster. Now look at one of those "one size fits all" rigs purchased at Wally World that has a cute little rivet at the top of the welt. Looks cheap as hell because your logical mind tells you that the maker can't even stitch well enough to keep the damned thing together so your shooter won't fall out, and on top of that, it's appearance should bring to mind questions about the quality of the leather used. To me, in general, rivets etc. do not belong in. on, or around a holster, BUT I'm just a poor, grumpy, opinionated, old man, and there are those that fail to see the logic in my thoughts. Mike

Mike, thanks again for the insight. Covering the trigger guard is just something I have not done and is something I want to try to see what difference it makes in the retention. Regarding rivets etc. This is mostly for me to learn to work with them and will only incorporate it as a design feature, not for strength. For rivets I am only looking at copper rivets. Copper rivets has a place in sheath designs and I like the old school look of copper rivets. This will be a holster for me, so it will be a good time to try out different methods and design feature. Your comments and insights are always highly appreciated!

Following is the second and last holster I made showing the open trigger guard/no retention around trigger guard.

[Rednichols]

It is absolutely not worthwhile to make the inner and outer layers different sizes. All production holsters (and the custom ones better be too) are identical layers. When properly glued and stitched, the layered leather will fold smoothly as if it was made from a single layer.

A caveat: it is not correct to think that two 6 ounce layers are the same as one 12 ounce layer, except mathematically. What's different? Temper (resistance to bending). The latter single layer will be quite a substantial, stiff piece; the former much softer and more flexible. That's one of the good reasons to use two layers: to change the dynamic of the folding and moulding and even the flexibility of the holster pocket.

Holster making has been a science for decades now. We've learned a lot since Heiser went out of business circa 1960; following the old ways only gives old results.

[vaalpens]

It is absolutely not worthwhile to make the inner and outer layers different sizes. All production holsters (and the custom ones better be too) are identical layers. When properly glued and stitched, the layered leather will fold smoothly as if it was made from a single layer.

A caveat: it is not correct to think that two 6 ounce layers are the same as one 12 ounce layer, except mathematically. What's different? Temper (resistance to bending). The latter single layer will be quite a substantial, stiff piece; the former much softer and more flexible. That's one of the good reasons to use two layers: to change the dynamic of the folding and moulding and even the flexibility of the holster pocket.

Holster making has been a science for decades now. We've learned a lot since Heiser went out of business circa 1960; following the old ways only gives old results.

Red. thanks for the information. I have now completed two lined holsters and I really like the feel and look of a lined holster. I agree that two 5 oz layers are different than one 10 oz layer. It seems there are more resistance to bending and even boning it, but it looks like it will hold its form probably for a longer time. One drawback I found using two 5 oz layers is the cost. It would have been great if the 5 oz was half the price of the 10 oz, but it is not. It is the same or maybe a bit less depending on where you buy it. Thanks again for your comments.

[Rednichols]

Red. thanks for the information. I have now completed two lined holsters and I really like the feel and look of a lined holster. I agree that two 5 oz layers are different than one 10 oz layer. It seems there are more resistance to bending and even boning it, but it looks like it will hold its form probably for a longer time. One drawback I found using two 5 oz layers is the cost. It would have been great if the 5 oz was half the price of the 10 oz, but it is not. It is the same or maybe a bit less depending on where you buy it. Thanks again for your comments.

I was being literal when I used that example :-). The large production makers use the thinnest, cheapest lining possible with the thickest first quality leather body possible. The small variation in cost between thicknesses is a small part of that, and cost is why so many use a very soft chrome split for the lining.

I use veg tanned kangaroo in a a falconry tannage, for my linings. More expensive than cowhide by a lot, but thin and tough and as smooth as cowhide.

For your purposes, of it's 12 ounce you're reaching for, use an 8 and a 5. It will fold and mould better than two 6s.

[SooperJake]

From the grump: Two pieces of 5/6oz will be plenty. when glued up they will produce a piece of leather of 10/12 oz weight - more than enough for all but the largest and heaviest of weapons. Use a good quality of contact cement (I use Weldwood Contact Cement). Cut one piece of leather carefully to as close to the exact pattern as possible, then cut a mirror image slightly larger all around than the original. Smear the contact cement on the flesh sides of each piece of the dead cow skin. When the surface of each is JUST SLIGHTLY tacky, align the two pieces, the smaller (carefully cut) one atop the larger. I use a piece of wax paper between the two pieces, align them and gently ease the paper out - a little at a time while ensuring a good physical bond by pressing the top piece down onto the bottom piece. When completely stuck together, roll the piece flat with something akin to mamma's rolling pin. Put some umph to it as you roll. If using her kitchen necessity, this is best done while the dear lady is out of the residence, or at least elsewhere, for a substantial time period. Finally, find a stack of heavy books, a piece of polished granite or marble (preferably NOT from a headstone) or any SMOOTH surfaced item or combination of items, then lay those on top of your bonded leather piece. NOW, this is critical!!! leave the damned thing alone until tomorrow!!! NO peaky, no messing with, --- just let it lay there all alone. After it has rested over night (to ensure the chemical bond between the two pieces) just trim to ensure it appears as a single piece of leather with two smooth sides. NOW -- treat it as just what it is -- a single piece of smooth dead cow skin. Don't try to fold the damned thing and make the 'lining' fit - just ain't gonna happen. Being well bonded it should not show wrinkles, and if it does, they'll be inconsequential. Merry Easter Eggs -- have fun. Mike

Always informative and in a well written and entertaining style. Thanks Mike!