Stain Dyed Calf Skin Card Wallet

[stevieboy7]

It was just a prototype that was slightly too nice to throw out. I should give it to a friend to test it out for feedback.

Pricing for this wallet will be mid 20. Stitches will be in 7 spi to save time, linen or tiger thread not fil au chinois to cut don't cost. Die cutters will be used and leather will be dyed and finished. Start to finish 10 minutes for a single piece.

$20- 30 will get a good number of sales once I become established as a proper etsy seller. Market audience for etsy look for handmade good at a store price, not boutique price so its a good number. A card wallet with more pockets will command a larger price tag.

What Macca said is enitrely true.

Plus, it still seems like you're just coming up with a number off the top of your head. You really need to put some thought into how long this product takes you.

Even if EVERYTHING was entirely pre-cut, I think it's impossible for you to make this product (dye, punch holes, stitch, finish edges) in 10 minutes. Seriously, just time yourself. It probably takes around 10 minutes to stitch....

You also just can't say "Oh, I'll get punches made for a 20$ product, that will save time!"

Punches cost money... like a decent amount of money (at least 100$ plus for a super simple die. Ontop of that, you need to buy some sort of press (hydraulic, or hand, at $800-$2k for a decent one to save time) or pay someone to do it. And even so, it's going to still take you a decent amount of time to get the die lined up around leather marks, and punch, then reline-up etc. In the end, for the price you're thinking, you'd have to sell 5,000+ product to make a return on investment.

I wouldn't even start talking about multiple companies... you haven't even established one! Make some interesting products (your 2 current designs have been done to DEATH by other leatherworkers) and just work on getting better yourself. Sell stuff once you're actually happy with it.

The first 5 prototypes of any design you're going to make will be shit, theres no way around it. It takes time and effort to refine a design to the point where its ready for sale.

How to create a product:

Come up with 10 interesting designs,

Make a prototype of each, see what needs changing, make another prototype, change again... etc.etc. Until you've made at least 5 prototypes of each design.

Study the EXACT breakdown of the final prototypes you've made. Leather (including shipping to you, time, how easy it is to get again), hardware (any metal) thread, and manufacturing (from when you unroll the leather, to when you have a product that is ready to package (EVERYTHING inbetween is time).

Look at which products make sense for at LEAST 2x cost resale. If you want to actually make money ontop of covering costs, charge 2.5-3x and if you want to sell in stores that are not your own, MSRP should equal at least 4x cost.

At this point, you set up a store, and properly get to marketing/social media.

Now look at this list, you've skipped EVERY step, and just went from idea->sales without any calculations or thought inbetween.

If you're actually serious about this, you really should take the right approach.

You can't just say "oh I'll make a bifold, that will sell well!", go actually make a bifold, they're not easy to get nice. and take A LOT of time and effort.

As well, finding leatherworking apprenticeship is VERY hard to do. I think that every person who has done an apprenticeship (where the master pays you) has done some sort of formal schooling or degree in leatherwork (fairly popular thing in Europe) in North America, leatherworking schools don't really exist. (or, as with europe, are very expensive)

[DavidL]

What Macca said is enitrely true.

Plus, it still seems like you're just coming up with a number off the top of your head. You really need to put some thought into how long this product takes you.

Even if EVERYTHING was entirely pre-cut, I think it's impossible for you to make this product (dye, punch holes, stitch, finish edges) in 10 minutes. Seriously, just time yourself. It probably takes around 10 minutes to stitch....

You also just can't say "Oh, I'll get punches made for a 20$ product, that will save time!"

Punches cost money... like a decent amount of money (at least 100$ plus for a super simple die. Ontop of that, you need to buy some sort of press (hydraulic, or hand, at $800-$2k for a decent one to save time) or pay someone to do it. And even so, it's going to still take you a decent amount of time to get the die lined up around leather marks, and punch, then reline-up etc. In the end, for the price you're thinking, you'd have to sell 5,000+ product to make a return on investment.

I wouldn't even start talking about multiple companies... you haven't even established one! Make some interesting products (your 2 current designs have been done to DEATH by other leatherworkers) and just work on getting better yourself. Sell stuff once you're actually happy with it.

The first 5 prototypes of any design you're going to make will be shit, theres no way around it. It takes time and effort to refine a design to the point where its ready for sale.

How to create a product:

Come up with 10 interesting designs,

Make a prototype of each, see what needs changing, make another prototype, change again... etc.etc. Until you've made at least 5 prototypes of each design.

Study the EXACT breakdown of the final prototypes you've made. Leather (including shipping to you, time, how easy it is to get again), hardware (any metal) thread, and manufacturing (from when you unroll the leather, to when you have a product that is ready to package (EVERYTHING inbetween is time).

Look at which products make sense for at LEAST 2x cost resale. If you want to actually make money ontop of covering costs, charge 2.5-3x and if you want to sell in stores that are not your own, MSRP should equal at least 4x cost.

At this point, you set up a store, and properly get to marketing/social media.

Now look at this list, you've skipped EVERY step, and just went from idea->sales without any calculations or thought inbetween.

If you're actually serious about this, you really should take the right approach.

You can't just say "oh I'll make a bifold, that will sell well!", go actually make a bifold, they're not easy to get nice. and take A LOT of time and effort.

As well, finding leatherworking apprenticeship is VERY hard to do. I think that every person who has done an apprenticeship (where the master pays you) has done some sort of formal schooling or degree in leatherwork (fairly popular thing in Europe) in North America, leatherworking schools don't really exist. (or, as with europe, are very expensive)

The punches were 200 bucks and I'm planning to use a punching hammer(25) to punch out the patterns. 5000 products multiplied by 19(25selling-6 overhead/fixed) = 95 grand. If i can make that in 2 years il be a happy man. I plan to utilize some online marketing. My brother has a web design company and knows the ins and outs of online marketing and can get me started on a website and marketing my product.

I don't believe I missed much in the list (I just didn't elaborate on it) I made 10+ prototypes and came up with those two as the design. The front pocket of the black wallet can be used to make a different card holder, using two overlapped and two larger pieces together to make a 3 pocket card holder. It can also be interchanged to make a foldable card holder with 2 pockets or an iPhone wallet, granted that I design them.

Many bifolds out there which are handmade have a bit of hand stitching or none at all, that could be a possibility when I design, or a fully stitched wallet. I agree they are used a lot but simplicity is what people look for now a days, but I will come up with some more designs that would work. (i've seen some pretty creative ones)

Most important thing about selling your product is to create a plan before you sell the product. If you go from making a product to then planning it will be a losing plan. So before I make more products I will need to first go apprenticeship if i can find one or go contact the people personally and go for 2-4 weeks and intensively train, preferably with at least two workers who had several decades of experience. Next I will consult with my father and brother, whom both are familiar with marketing as to things i should tweak and which avenues I should take.

As to how long it takes I haven't timed it but I have a good sense of timing. 10 minutes is too quick, unless it is pre dyed and unfinished edges. I would say under 20 minutes if the leather was dyed the day before for a card wallet with 4 inches of stitching at 7 spi. Starting after the leather is cut and dyed from the day before. buffing and adding a finish 3 minutes. Buff out finish and dye edges 3 minutes. Use a scratch compass to mark out stitches and prick the holes - 5 minutes. Saddle stitch 4 inches of leather at 7 spi 5-8 minutes. Optional - finish the edge 5 minutes. 24 minutes for the longest time it would take and 16 minutes for the shortest time. To keep up this pace for 20 a day will be difficult.

Appreciate the comment! helped me hone in on a few areas that needed some touch up. Would need to factor in all costs of the supplies and get an exact number.

After I perfect my technique I will write up a business plan and have my father critique it and il share it with this community, seeing as it has help me so much and it can be beneficial to me and to people reading.

[Macca]

Cant think of many things worse than having to make the same thing again & again, you will get sick of it very quickly.

Seriously, drop the mass volume idea, for handmade its just dumb.

Point of handmade is something unique, something the volume guys can't do.

The market is saturated with low cost wallets/card holders, I don't get why you think there is room for you there ?

[DavidL]

id rather start there and build a reputation, even if i break even people will be following my brand. It would be hard starting from no reputation, no reviews, no media press to selling card wallets for 70 dollars. It could be done though. Mostly it is so i can pay off for my debt and make a bit of money to feel out the market.

I also currently do not have the skill to makes something of high value yet. I have ocd and won't find it boring (kinda a gift?), most people who do good in fields like this has remarkable genetics and are hardworking. When I used to play basketball on a team everyone would leave the court for 20 minute break and i would be trying out new moves and perfecting a part of my game where I fall short - i don't think I can even take a break unless i passed out from exhaustion or if it was a pick up game and I wanted to take it easy.

Over the next week I'm writing up a page analysis each of the competitors business models and their marketing outreach. Find out from there where i can fit in.

low cost/ high production, if you can find your place has tremendously high profits. Im still unsure because what you are saying is true the mass volume is hard, but at slightly higher price than made in china and with better quality leather and making process it is more appealing to consumers - you would have to market it well to get this point across. Im going to do a 20 page write up and then I will have more accurate numbers (had to do this in marketing class and it was a pain in the ass- now i see its worth)

Thanks for the help macca, stevieboy7, and everyone that wrote in any more feedback would help out - Came in here with a plan that was flawed and realize now that I needed to put it down on paper and plan out every last detail and organize it better.

Feedback on the mass marketing vs high end production will help. I also will post a question on the marketing section of this forum and on a different forum.

[cjmt]

There's some good advice in this thread. Specifically you can't compete with China, you'll never succeed if you try to do that, particularly hand stitching. Anyone can import a container load for a tenth of what you can make them for and if your just going to bash things out as fast as you can there isn't going to much difference between your work am mass produced stuff

To go high end you need to spend time on what you make, the details count. For eg I budget a minimum of half an hour just for the edges of a watch strap and 45 mins isn't unusual...

[DavidL]

There's some good advice in this thread. Specifically you can't compete with China, you'll never succeed if you try to do that, particularly hand stitching. Anyone can import a container load for a tenth of what you can make them for and if your just going to bash things out as fast as you can there isn't going to much difference between your work am mass produced stuff

To go high end you need to spend time on what you make, the details count. For eg I budget a minimum of half an hour just for the edges of a watch strap and 45 mins isn't unusual...

Yes, your right low end products are a bad decision, I'm going to focus on quality over quantity. As for your edges why not use a motorized tool, if your budget allows for it. Elfita has a wood or metal motorized burnisher for 70 USD.

Edited April 15, 2014 by DavidL

[stevieboy7]

Yes, your right low end products are a bad decision, I'm going to focus on quality over quantity. As for your edges why not use a motorized tool, if your budget allows for it. Elfita has a wood or metal motorized burnisher for 70 USD.

Motorizing =/= automatically faster and quality will drop.

If you want the best quality, you're going to do everything by hand, and take the time.

With anything in life you can have 2 of 3 things:

Price

Quality

Speed

You can have an inexpensive quality product, but it will be slow(take time).

You can have an inexpensive product fast, but quality will suffer.

You can have a quality product quickly, but it will cost money.

This is why, when you look at all of the people doing high quality items, they are doing it by hand, as price does not matter, and quality is of utmost importance.

Edited April 15, 2014 by stevieboy7

[DavidL]

Makes sense. Im not in my element here, doesn't motorized burnishing create better results than hand burnishing as the pressure is more consistent? For integrity of the product it will make a difference, but is the quality better?

In the area of quality vs speed/price

Motorized burnishing same as manual burnishing - results wise?

Hand cutting vs die cutting - do customers want to pay more for hand cutting vs die cutting?

Machine stitching vs hand stitching - I think i got a handle on this one.

Hand dying with natural dye like fruits or powders vs conventional oil dyes? (This may be influence by the target market)

everything by hand have that big of an influence vs most things are done by hand but a few areas are motorized for cost efficiency and consistency.

[cjmt]

Motorizing =/= automatically faster and quality will drop.

If you want the best quality, you're going to do everything by hand, and take the time.

With anything in life you can have 2 of 3 things:

Price

Quality

Speed

You can have an inexpensive quality product, but it will be slow(take time).

You can have an inexpensive product fast, but quality will suffer.

You can have a quality product quickly, but it will cost money.

This is why, when you look at all of the people doing high quality items, they are doing it by hand, as price does not matter, and quality is of utmost importance.

Exactly this. Your thinking about things the wrong way around. Remember you said you were going to be better than Hunio or Peter Nitz? Look at the photos of construction that Hunio in particular publishes. Do any of the steps in his work look like he's cutting corners or making things as fast as possible? Even for simple products the steps required are detailed and intricate and about making as perfect a thing as possible.

For legitimate high end work the process works like this

Theres a demand for lovely thing X

To make lovely thing X in as good a way as its possible for me to do so will take x hours

I need to buy tool x y and z

Im therefor going to charge price Z. This is an expensive price but thats because its a lovely thing

You are starting of by thinking

I want to make thing X and will charge Y because thats what I think the market is

I have to maximise profit so I have to make these as fast as possible, what can I do without it being a bit rubbish?

That works if you have a factory - you don't and your competitors do, they will eat you alive and spit out the little bits of your clicker dies....

As a not to snarky aside, the motorised gismo you recommended me is around 1/3 the price I charge for a finished watch strap - you'll offend the people here who are trying to help you if you dish out too much "advice"!

Charlie

[DavidL]

alright point taken. I just thought that as long as the core of your product is in tack, such as hand stitching, hand dying, and hand assembled that the few things are not on this list can be automated and still keep the integrity of the product as long as it doesn't hurt the end result. My point of view was that hermes, known as one of the best leather boutiques does some parts of there work by automation - like their watches are machine stitched, their saddles are mostly machine stitched and a part of their kelly bags are machine stitched and still when I look at the product It is still great at its core, since 80 percent is hand made and 20 percent is automated. But they have a huge following so they are allowed to do so. Also I'm entitled to my opinion and freedom of speech to give out any advice I see fit . Anyways, on a lighter note do you have a website cjmt I would love to see those watches . You could put it in your signature so people can see, if you have a website.

Thanks again for everyone who posted!