Bidding On Ebay For Leather Stamping Tools

[WyomingSlick]

Recently, one of the members here made a comment to the effect that you should not buy tools on eBay. I would surmise from his comment that he did not have a good experiance from doing so.

"Caveat Emptor" Latin for "Let the Buyer Beware" is the guiding principle for all eBay buying. It is not so much that sellers are trying to deceive you, but rather that many are ignorant about what they are selling. That is why good pictures are so important! Early in my eBay experiance, more than 10 years ago, I made the mistake of buying a lot of tools based on rather fuzzy pictures. They turned out to be much more oxidized (rusty) than they seemed in the pictures.

I learned from that, and have since had many great buys on eBay. I learned to arm myself with knowledge about leather tools and have seldom been disappointed since.

Here are pictures from a buy I made recently - these are the actual pictures that the seller posted. The seller was a lady from Tucson, AZ, and the description read as follows:

"Lot of 46 Leather tools. "As is" Wooden box not included.

I believe they are all from Craft Tool Co.

I know they are vintage, because of how old I am, and I'm pretty vintage myself. I used them in the early 70's with my mom to make bracelets and wallets. She might have gotten them in the 60's, but I do not know.

As you can see, there is rust, but I'm sure that if you know how to clean them, they would look very pretty again. There are some repeat tools, so look them over.

When purchased, I will wrap them in bubble wrap and put them in a small priority mail box. (($5.25))

If purchased on the weekend, then I will mail on Monday as we have limited Postal service here.

No returns,so be sure before bidding !

Thank you for your time and for bidding, if you do !!

If you have questions, I'll do my best to answer. If you need more pics, please ask. "

So here's the situation....less than 10 minutes remaining in the auction......the bid is at $49.00 and so far there are 3 active bidders.

So how much should I bid before the auction ends? And why? I would like to hear your thoughts about this, and buying on eBay in general.

[billybopp]

Interesting question! At least this listing shows you the tool faces, which is very helpful. A little rust on a handle is no big deal. Rust on the tool face makes it pretty much unusable. Some of the tools are potentially pretty valuable, but I'm no expert on that and only buy to use. If I needed 4 or 5 of the usable tools, I'd bit 60ish. Otherwise, I'd pass.

I've had generally good luck buying on ebay, with just one or two disappointments. The savings on the good buys more than offsets the cost of the disappointments for me.

Bill

[bruce johnson]

My thoughts at the time was that these were not described very well. At least some of the stamps are Hackbarths, and probably Ray Hackbarths. Pretty sure that swivel knife to the right is, although the blade might be suspect. Some of the rusty crusty stamps are likely McMillens based on catalog impressions, Can't rule Eberle or another handmaker out on some either. The faces looked pretty good and should derust just fine. To be honest I had a scheduled bid in for more than they sold for, but most of these would have been duplicates for me. I have quite a few Ray Hackbarths already and looks like I have most all of these that may have been. The two multiple "birds eye" stamps I have, and they were probably the cream of those types. I was offered a private deal a few hours before these ended on a boatload of really good hand tools .I scaled back my scheduled bid on these to free myself for that. I left these at a "if I get them, I stole them" price and the next bid got them. My initial scheduled bid was based on value to me. I figured a price on the knives. I came with a factor for each type of stamp based on common/no so common and multiplied that out by the numbers by each maker I thought there probably were. Added it all up and that was my initial bid.

[bruce johnson]

I have a little more time today to address Slick's question about buying on Ebay in general. Like most auctions, you need to have a pretty good idea what you are buying and be in a position to expect a few disappointments along with the really sweet deals. Not everything is going to be as described and that works both ways as seen by the example above. I look at feedback casually. If a seller has a few dings, I'll see why. If it is they take 2 weeks to ship, leave out items, or seriously misrepresented something, I proceed carefully. If someone red buttoned them for receiving a broken finger on a glass figurine and I am looking at a hammer then I probably won't care. I look at shipping costs, and a lot of times contact them. The calculator can be off, or I can suggest a faster and less expensive method. Package Service at the post office takes some pretty odd routes (Illinois to the sort center in Warrendale, PA, then back across country on a camel caravan) and the savings aren't usually worth it. Just as important, when they say they can ship a crank splitter for $25, I really think hard. That is way too cheap to pack and pad 50# of cast iron correctly. They'll lose money (likely) and then short the packing material (more likely) so you receive a box of rattling parts iwith clean shiny breaks (most likely).

On the items themselves I look pretty carefully at the pictures and not so much at the descriptions. (Again, Slick's example above). I look for what is there, and just as important what is NOT there. Awhile back a crank skiver sold on a buy it now as-is no returns for $300. Front picture looked really clean and good. From the back it was missing the whole back assembly that held the blade, that was major. Buyer was pretty disappointed when he called to see if I had a spare back half. The sellers don't always know what they have. Kind of like gambling, never bid more than you can stand to lose, although buyer protection gives a little insurance.

I have a figure in mind of what I can pay for a particular type of tool pretty much privately or at auction. Something has to be pretty special for me to exceed that. I multiply out my factors on the tools and that's my bid. I usually do scheduled bids in case I am not around or want the leeway to change a bid or cancel it if something else comes along. A lot of stuff seems to come on Sundays and then close a week later all within a short time period. There may be 3 or 4 similar things I am looking at, and if I get the first one I can cancel the other bids.

[chrstn53]

WyomingSlick you got a pretty good deal on those stamps, less than $5 a tool... good eye. I wish I would have noticed them. The tools look easy enough to clean up especially all of the stainless Hackbarth tools in the collection. I'm always looking for the diamonds in the rough and looked right over them. It always amazes me when people are selling old tools and don't even take the time to type a few of the names into the google search page. Good thing Bruce scaled back his bid and let you get them that cheap, but if he did not spot them with his eagle eye you could have stolen them for $60. Well to answer your question I would have kept a few and sold the others so if I was in the bidding action I would have bid around $250 which would have allowed me to keep the ones I wanted and recoup most of my cost when I re offered the others for sale. Congrats on the tools and if you feel inclined I would love to know what other makers were in that lot.

[WyomingSlick]

My thanks to those of you who replied, and also to those of you who just looked.

When I first saw this auction, I too, nearly passed it over. But, the distinctive yoke on the swivel knife and the number of crowners stopped me. Looking closer at the pictures, I soon had no doubt that the swivel knife was definately a Ray Hackbarth one, complete with the original hollow ground blade which could be seen clealy in the last picture. Then, there was the fact that the seller was in Tucson, AZ which of course is not far from Phoenix, where Ray Hackbarth made tools. From her description, the tools had to predate the Hackbarths made later by Ellis Barnes and Lonnie Height. So it was almost a dead certainty that some of the tools were original Ray Hackbarths.

Sometimes it is a tricky business counting tools on ebay auctions because sellers will post numerous pics of the same tool, but I finally decided there were at least eight Hackbarths plus the swivel knife. Of course some of the other tools were Craftools, and the rest were a collection of early unplated tools. That is where the rust came from. I was not too concerned about the rust because of course, the Hackbarths wouldn't rust, and most of the rust was very light rust as evidenced by its yellow color. I only saw a few spots where the rust was reddish which usually indicates deeper oxidation with possible pitting. That is one of the things I have learned over the years.......tools from dry areas like Arizona are usually more rust free than tools from more humid areas like the Gulf states or the Northwest.

With all that in mind, I posted my bid, and won the auction. Thank goodness it was plenty high enough. I am not going to specify what I bid , but it was way above the price I won the auction for. If I had known exactly what was in the auction, I would have bid even higher than I did.

So the tools came, and I was tickled to find that there were actually eleven original Ray Hackbarths in addition to the swivel knife. All of them were the original "long" Ray Hackbarths that vary in length from 4 3/8" to 4 9/16", and all were stamped with the complete "R. Hackbarth", "Phoenix, Az.", and "Stainless" markings, including the swivel knife. All were early Hackbarths that do not have a tool number as found on his later stamps.

Most of the Craftools cleaned up well......only a couple of "junkers" there. In fact there were several very collectible early Craftools that went into my personal collection. The unplated tools also cleaned up even better than I expected and there were several very nice examples of the early toolmakers there. You may notice that in the last picture, some of the stamp shafts to the left look crooked. Well....lol....that is because they are crooked. No big surprise there because more than one of the oldtime tool makers used old bolts and nails/spikes to make tools with.

The little plated shader on the far right is an interesting stamp. The knurling and the finish suggest it is a Craftool......however, the super slim fore shaft is reminiscent of the streamlined artisan look seen on many of Ray Hackbarth's stamps. Perhaps it is one of Dick McGahen's early efforts

Here is another auction that I picked up recently. What do you think of this one?

[WyomingSlick]

LOL

As I was saying before the site went screwy and uploadd before I was ready........

Here is another auction I picked up recently, What do you all think about it?

[bruce johnson]

WyomingSlick,

Those did clean up nice! I had guessed there were 10 Hackbarth stamps at the time in that set, so I was close. Thanks for the follow up on them.

Now to add a little more. I guess I made you pay on that earlier set from the Midwest too. The far left side front row stamp is a Hackbarth. The two just inside it are suspicious, I am 50/50 the cam is. The seeder or small center on the far left back row is a bit suspicious too. If you don't mind saying, what was the breakdown of makers there? I had a bigger scheduled bid there too and that was when the big set of mixed tools got offered to me. Two days later the other stamps and knives were closing on the Tucson set and I get an estate deal. We both had a hell of a couple days!

[WyomingSlick]

Now to add a little more. I guess I made you pay on that earlier set from the Midwest too.

Bruce, Nope, it wasn't me that won that auction since these are the only Hackbarths I've picked up for a while.

That last auction I posted up above was sure kind of a miscellaneous collection. I went for it because of the large McMillen stamp to the far right. The rest were an assortment of a few very early Craftools, some later unlettered Craftools, a couple of the metal stamping Craftools (the brasssy looking ones), the small pinker, and some junk

Here is a picture of the McMillen after clean up with another real "oldie".......a F.K. Russell fleur-de-lis that I won (stole) in another auction

[WyomingSlick]

WyomingSlick you got a pretty good deal on those stamps, less than $5 a tool... good eye. I wish I would have noticed them. The tools look easy enough to clean up especially all of the stainless Hackbarth tools in the collection. I'm always looking for the diamonds in the rough and looked right over them. It always amazes me when people are selling old tools and don't even take the time to type a few of the names into the google search page. Good thing Bruce scaled back his bid and let you get them that cheap, but if he did not spot them with his eagle eye you could have stolen them for $60. Well to answer your question I would have kept a few and sold the others so if I was in the bidding action I would have bid around $250 which would have allowed me to keep the ones I wanted and recoup most of my cost when I re offered the others for sale. Congrats on the tools and if you feel inclined I would love to know what other makers were in that lot.

To be honest, while I consider myself to be fairly knowledgable about Craftools......somewhat knowledgable about RBS and Cal Carved stamps.....when it comes to other early Toolmakers, I am pretty much in the dark. I know that there are those out there who claim to be able to tell a McMillian from others, but unless it is one of the more elaborate set stamps that I can find in the old catalogs, I just plain can't say. If it is a common beveler, shader, seeder, bargrounder, etc., than I don't see how you can tell some of them apart. Some of my old tools can be seen to be made by the same maker because of common characteristics ie. length, knurling, finish, etc. but who those makers were, seems to be lost to history.

For instance, there was at least one maker who was located somwhere in the New England States, perhaps Boston......but that is not for sure. and I have never found a name to assign to them. These stamps all seem to have what I believe is a zinc coating that is kind of a frosted silver in appearance, as well as being much alike in their knurling and tool profiles.

So, when it come to putting a name to old unmarked stamps, I am very hesitant. That applies even to old chromeplated, or even unplated stamps that walk like a Craftool, quack like a Craftool, and look like a Craftool. The fact is that early Craftools were made by various differant makers and it was actually the stamping of the name on the tool that primarily defined them as a Craftool.

Take Ellis Barnes for instance. He made tools for Bill Wheeler at CalCarved, Dick McGahen at Craftool, as a partner in RBS, for Ray Hackbarth, and even under his own name (Barnes) in the forties through the sixties. He finished out his years making tools under the Hackbarth label after he bought the rights when Ray Hackbarth died. The best work he ever did was leaving behind a worthy successsor.

[bruce johnson]

Frosted like these? I have had several. No markings on any of them. These I know the history of and they are from a maker who bought them in the early to mid 60s.

[WyomingSlick]

Frosted like these? I have had several. No markings on any of them. These I know the history of and they are from a maker who bought them in the early to mid 60s.

Yup, that would be them........same finish, same round end on shaft, and the same removal of finish on the business end. Those would fit right in with these others of mine.

So,can you tell us anything else about them?

[WyomingSlick]

Bruce, Nope, it wasn't me that won that auction since these are the only Hackbarths I've picked up for a while.

That last auction I posted up above was sure kind of a miscellaneous collection. I went for it because of the large McMillen stamp to the far right. The rest were an assortment of a few very early Craftools, some later unlettered Craftools, a couple of the metal stamping Craftools (the brasssy looking ones), the small pinker, and some junk

Here is a picture of the McMillen after clean up with another real "oldie".......a F.K. Russell fleur-de-lis that I won (stole) in another auction

Oldies.JPG

So, why isn't the attachment of the two tools being displayed in this post?

[bruce johnson]

WyomingSlick,

The history on these pictured is that they were owned by the late saddlemaker, Wade Warren. A few years ago his family had contacted the Cowboy Museum about donating his tools. I went up and saw the tools and what they had. He lost most of his tools in the fire when Visalia Stock Saddle Co was in Sacramento and these are what they had with no background other than "This was Uncle Wade's stuff". They had some catalogs and receipts, only these stamps and striking stick, stitching horse, and a saddle - a Visalia "Warren Roper". One receipt was from MacPhersons and had stamps listed on it. That is the first I had seen these frosted stamps. One guy I asked at the time said it looked like a Parkerized finish. I am not sure on that. Just recently they donated everything to the museum, but I have not had the chance to go in and look at them again yet. If the paper is there, I will especially be interested in that.

Since then I have bought two sets of tools that had some of these stamps. One set had about a dozen frosted along with other stamps (McMillen looking and several Ray Hackbarth). The other set I got a couple months ago. It was a little wood box with two drawers and hinged top lid. The top had some modelers and misc stuff. One drawer had maybe 20 stamps - a couple McMillen looking, preletter CTs, and 4 of the frosted ones that had taken on a green color to the coating. The other drawer had 14 no mark nice stamps with a hand written note "Stamps from Frank". One guy who worked the AZ shops told me they sure looked like Eberle stamps. That is as close to provenance for Eberle stamps I have come - having a note that said "Frank" on it.

Now the interesting rub. When Visalia burned and closed, Wade Warren moved up to Grass Valley. Other western tradesmen were there. There was and still is some silver and leatherwork done through that area. The first set of the frosted stamps I bought came from an antique dealer in Nevada City, the other side of the mountain and a 3 minute drive from Grass Valley. The last set I bought came from a guy in Grass Valley who got them at a yard sale. It is interesting that all I have seen came from one close geographical area. I don't think it means much other than they all were probably buying from the same source.

If you remove the coating, the metal is a bit different than other stamps. It is a softer finish and sort of matte like polished aluminum. Stamps are definitely steel but just have that look.

[WyomingSlick]

WyomingSlick,

The history on these pictured is that they were owned by the late saddlemaker, Wade Warren. A few years ago his family had contacted the Cowboy Museum about donating his tools. I went up and saw the tools and what they had. He lost most of his tools in the fire when Visalia Stock Saddle Co was in Sacramento and these are what they had with no background other than "This was Uncle Wade's stuff". They had some catalogs and receipts, only these stamps and striking stick, stitching horse, and a saddle - a Visalia "Warren Roper". One receipt was from MacPhersons and had stamps listed on it. That is the first I had seen these frosted stamps. One guy I asked at the time said it looked like a Parkerized finish. I am not sure on that. Just recently they donated everything to the museum, but I have not had the chance to go in and look at them again yet. If the paper is there, I will especially be interested in that.

Since then I have bought two sets of tools that had some of these stamps. One set had about a dozen frosted along with other stamps (McMillen looking and several Ray Hackbarth). The other set I got a couple months ago. It was a little wood box with two drawers and hinged top lid. The top had some modelers and misc stuff. One drawer had maybe 20 stamps - a couple McMillen looking, preletter CTs, and 4 of the frosted ones that had taken on a green color to the coating. The other drawer had 14 no mark nice stamps with a hand written note "Stamps from Frank". One guy who worked the AZ shops told me they sure looked like Eberle stamps. That is as close to provenance for Eberle stamps I have come - having a note that said "Frank" on it.

Now the interesting rub. When Visalia burned and closed, Wade Warren moved up to Grass Valley. Other western tradesmen were there. There was and still is some silver and leatherwork done through that area. The first set of the frosted stamps I bought came from an antique dealer in Nevada City, the other side of the mountain and a 3 minute drive from Grass Valley. The last set I bought came from a guy in Grass Valley who got them at a yard sale. It is interesting that all I have seen came from one close geographical area. I don't think it means much other than they all were probably buying from the same source.

If you remove the coating, the metal is a bit different than other stamps. It is a softer finish and sort of matte like polished aluminum. Stamps are definitely steel but just have that look.

Thank you

I think your guy with his "Parkerized" observation may have something there. It may be the zinc type, rather than the more commonly seen manganese parkerization which produces the dark grey matte finish most often seen on firearms. Apparently, the zinc process can result in the greenish tinge we have both observed on some of these stamps, but initially it is the frosty silver tone we see.

About that Visalia Fire.....didn't anybody make an attempt to recover the stamps? I wouldn't have thought the fire would have been so hot as to destroy them.

Provenance? LOL Other than the 30 or so stamps my Dad bought when he was in the Army in the early 50s, I would have to say most everything I have collected is totally lacking in that aspect. I am doing good just to find an old catalog or brochure that shows the tools. And unlike the utility tools that you deal in, seldom is anything more than just the tool impression shown.

For example, here are some tool pages from a "Handicraft Supplies" catalog from J.C.Larsen Company, Chicago , Illinois that I am deducing is from the late 40's judging by the prices shown for the various other tools (knives. hole punches, awls, etc) they offered. What caught my attention was the round heels on their bevelers which are like the stamps we have been discussing. However, the rest of the stamps in the catalog seem to be a poor match and of course the numbers for these "steel" stamps match exactly with the same system used by Craftool

Actually when you get down to specifics with the "frostys", they seem to have been patterened after McMillens more than any others.

Of interest also is that Larsen also sold the Handigrip modeling tools which seem to be fairly rare.

I am surprised that more of these are not found since just like the catalog page says, they are better tools than the other modeling tools of that era. I particularly like that your fingers are much closer to the work and more comfortable in use.

.