Making Natural Dyes?

[zaynexpetty]

Hello all,

I have been using fiebings pro oil dye on all of my dyed projects. I do like the way that it sits in the leather, but I am the type of person that would much rather use a more natural alternative when it comes to most methods. I have heard about using cold black coffee to darken leather, as well as multiple light coats of extra virgin olive oil left out in the sun. I am more keen to these types of methods.

I was wondering if anyone knows of, or has had any experience with, making their own plant based leather dyes?

I have heard of people using organic material such as:

onions

blueberries

cedar

walnut husks

alder

blackberries

elderberries

fern fronds

etc...

I do have access to these items, but I am unsure of the process in which to get the pigment out of the item, as well as applying the dye, and storage.

Edit: Do you think this method would work for dying leather?

http://pioneerthinking.com/crafts/natural-dyes

Thanks!

Zayne

Edited August 1, 2014 by zaynexpetty

[anhurset]

Without fail, the color extraction process is going to be boiling, toss the intended ingredients into a pot, add water and boil. Some of them will require a full rolling boil (I get the best result from walnuts by boiling the crap out of them) wile others, such as onion skins will work well by taking them to a rolling boil and then reducing to a simmer. A rolling boil will extract color faster than a simmer, but some items don't respond well to that level of heat for an extended period. Regardless of boiling or simmering you're looking at hours of heat and usualy a couple of water refreshes before you reach a useable dye. After you achieve the color and consistency/viscosity you're looking for allow it to cool and decant into containers.

You've got a couple of options when it comes to storage, you can freeze the dye which requires no preservative, but does require thawing before use, or you can add rubbing alcohol to lengthen shelf life. I use alcohol, 1 cup of 90% isopropyl per 2 quarts of dye. Others use more or less, but I've found this to be a good ratio, I've got an old (5 years old to be exact) container of walnut dye using this ratio and it has never shown a willingness to mold. I use natural dyes straight from the barrel without cooking out the alcohol and have never had any issues, other people insist that the alcohol needs to be cooked out before use, but I just don't see the point in that, it's extra work which serves no purpose. Isopropyl on leather is a lesser evil than the denatured alchohol found in factory dyes and the amount of alcohol I suggest is an infinitely smaller quantity than is found in those store bought dyes.

When it comes to dyeing you'll have to experiment, you'll get a different color depending on application, brush the dye on gives a different tone than imersing the leather, altering the number of layers applied or the amount if time the leather was immersed will also alter the resulting color. The leather itself will alter your color results too, no two hides will give the same color. The amount of oil applied after dyeing will alter the color depth too. Practice and experimentation are paramount when using natural dyes. With the black walnut dye I make I can get shades as light as a yellowish tan all the way to beep dark chocolate brown, it all depends on my method of application and the amount of dye I apply.

I definitely suggest you try natural dyes, theyre far less messy than spirit and oil dyes, cheap, easy to make and once you figure out the tricks they're easy to use.

[zaynexpetty]

Without fail, the color extraction process is going to be boiling, toss the intended ingredients into a pot, add water and boil. Some of them will require a full rolling boil (I get the best result from walnuts by boiling the crap out of them) wile others, such as onion skins will work well by taking them to a rolling boil and then reducing to a simmer. A rolling boil will extract color faster than a simmer, but some items don't respond well to that level of heat for an extended period. Regardless of boiling or simmering you're looking at hours of heat and usualy a couple of water refreshes before you reach a useable dye. After you achieve the color and consistency/viscosity you're looking for allow it to cool and decant into containers.

You've got a couple of options when it comes to storage, you can freeze the dye which requires no preservative, but does require thawing before use, or you can add rubbing alcohol to lengthen shelf life. I use alcohol, 1 cup of 90% isopropyl per 2 quarts of dye. Others use more or less, but I've found this to be a good ratio, I've got an old (5 years old to be exact) container of walnut dye using this ratio and it has never shown a willingness to mold. I use natural dyes straight from the barrel without cooking out the alcohol and have never had any issues, other people insist that the alcohol needs to be cooked out before use, but I just don't see the point in that, it's extra work which serves no purpose. Isopropyl on leather is a lesser evil than the denatured alchohol found in factory dyes and the amount of alcohol I suggest is an infinitely smaller quantity than is found in those store bought dyes.

When it comes to dyeing you'll have to experiment, you'll get a different color depending on application, brush the dye on gives a different tone than imersing the leather, altering the number of layers applied or the amount if time the leather was immersed will also alter the resulting color. The leather itself will alter your color results too, no two hides will give the same color. The amount of oil applied after dyeing will alter the color depth too. Practice and experimentation are paramount when using natural dyes. With the black walnut dye I make I can get shades as light as a yellowish tan all the way to beep dark chocolate brown, it all depends on my method of application and the amount of dye I apply.

I definitely suggest you try natural dyes, theyre far less messy than spirit and oil dyes, cheap, easy to make and once you figure out the tricks they're easy to use.

Wow! I wasn't expecting such an in depth response, thank you so much. This was EXACTLY what I was looking for!

Would it be reasonable to store the dyes in glass mason jars? Also, although I am not opposed to using isopropyl as a preservative, are their any other alternatives besides freezing? I really would like to avoid any chemicals if at al possible.

I found this: http://www.naturalcosmeticnews.com/new-ingredients/the-most-popular-natural-preservatives-2/

Would any of those ingredients be a good substitute for alcohol/freezing?

I read that potassium sorbate is a fairly good natural preservative, although I wouldn't know if I would need to use it in combination with anything else.

Edited August 3, 2014 by zaynexpetty

[anhurset]

Storage would depend mainly on the acidity of the dye, I would expect mason jars would be fine, I would suggest inspection acting the lids from time to time for rust. Vinegaroon is the only thing I have dealt with that was seriously damaging to metal. I tend to use plastic containers, most of my dying is done via immersion, so for me it's more sensible to use buckets, so I use six gallon buckets with lids with air tight gaskets. I do keep a small amount of each dye I use in smaller containers for when I do a brushed on finish, for those I tend to recycle whatever I've got laying around, mostly gallon vinegar jugs left over from making vinegaroon and empty liquor bottles.

If you're not going to freeze the dye then you'll have to add something to retard mold growth and the least dangerous thing you're likely to find will be isopropyl alcohol. With walnut dye, one cup of alcohol to seven and a half cups of dye is just enough to keep mold at bay without being noticeable odor wise, the tannin odor is infinitely stronger. I've heard of people using no preservatives and just dealing with the mold, either scraping it off with each use or simply ignoring it, but then you'll be dealing with possibly dangerous mold. I'll take the minor alcohol contact from fishing items out of the vat, usually less than 20 seconds on the skin, over dealing with mold any day.

[DavidL]

glass will shatter if you freeze it btw.

I've had a hard time with dyes being consistent on the flesh side the dye is splotchy. It could be that the leather is bad quality and my technique is a little off. I hear that vinegaroon

actually dyes better and the colour is more even. Is there a way to add blue indigo dye or add blue berries to change the colour of vinegaroon or will it turn out a huge mess?

[camano ridge]

Go over to cascity.com to the leather shop forum click on the FAQs how to and you will find indepth information for making vinegaroon, coffee and tea dyes and others. Tell them waht you want to make dye from and people like Chuck Burrows and others will probably have a reciepe for you. With walnut dye what you really want are the husks not the walnuts them selves. You will want to mass or chop the husks in a garage sale blender ( do not use your wifes blender, you may be thrown out with the blender). You will boil the mash.

Edited August 3, 2014 by camano ridge

[DavidL]

The website is still processing my account so it may be a while. So far I tried turmeric with olive oil and I gotten a caramel coloured piece, with water and turmeric it came out transparent yellow. I like how the colour is nearly consistent throughout. Im thinking mixing anything thats in powder form with olive oil or some sort of transparent oil (rubbing alcohol?mineral oil? baby oil?) will soak into the leather and create a permanent bond.

Edited August 4, 2014 by DavidL

[anhurset]

With walnut dye what you really want are the husks not the walnuts them selves. You will want to mass or chop the husks in a garage sale blender ( do not use your wifes blender, you may be thrown out with the blender). You will boil the mash.

I have found this step to be completely unnecessary. I used to husk the nuts and blend until I came across a Native American recipe from the 18th century which suggested soaking the whole nuts in water until they fermented and the husk started sliding off (usually takes about two weeks). You can boil with or without the nut itself, it really doesn't make a difference, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, it really depends on how much husk material I have after peeling.

I most definitely agree that you should check the natural dyes thread at CAS City, there's a lot of good information there, make sure you go through the entire discussion though, a lot of the recipes evolve through the thread. There's also a recipe in The Book of Buckskinning vol. VI.

I've tried coffee and tea dyes a few times and have never been happy with them, they tend to require a lot of soaking, 12-24 hours, to achieve at most a very light brown color. A 1:1 mix of walnut dye and water, brushed on, gives essentially the same color in far less time and gives the option of darkening by adding multiple coats.

Don't overlook fiber dyeing recipes (ignore the mordants and boiling/soaking times), they're good guides for determining if an ingredient will work, what color it will givegive and how light fast it is. Generally speaking, if it works for fabric, it will work for leather.

Edited August 5, 2014 by anhurset

[mlapaglia]

Vinegroon is not a dye its a chemical reaction so adding different colors to it will not change the black. The Iron in the vinegaroon reacts with the tannins in the leather and turns black (simple explanation of the chemical process). it makes a great black but wont work to try to change it to a different color.

[anhurset]

I meant to say something about that, but completely forgot. As stated above you can't really change the color vinegaroon imparts, you can, however, use the oxidization process to alter the color of other natural dyes. Small amounts of iron (de greased steel wool) added to the dye will both darken the resulting dye and cause color changes in the dye. Adding it during the boiling process is easiest, though it can be added afterwards. When I say a small amount I'm talking less than a 1/4 of a pad of OOOO steel wool to 5 gallons of dye. More can be added, but I've noticed that it tends to mute the untertones and causes the color to look a bit lifeless.

Natural fiber dyeing guides will give an idea of the resulting colors caused by adding iron, but the end result will likely be different due to the iron/tannin reaction within the leather.

[zaynexpetty]

I meant to say something about that, but completely forgot. As stated above you can't really change the color vinegaroon imparts, you can, however, use the oxidization process to alter the color of other natural dyes. Small amounts of iron (de greased steel wool) added to the dye will both darken the resulting dye and cause color changes in the dye. Adding it during the boiling process is easiest, though it can be added afterwards. When I say a small amount I'm talking less than a 1/4 of a pad of OOOO steel wool to 5 gallons of dye. More can be added, but I've noticed that it tends to mute the untertones and causes the color to look a bit lifeless.

Natural fiber dyeing guides will give an idea of the resulting colors caused by adding iron, but the end result will likely be different due to the iron/tannin reaction within the leather.

Thank you for the plethora of information.

I have experimented with super dark concentrated coffee, highly concentrated black tea, and blackberries. I am going to give black grapes a try tonight, and vinegaroon and the walnut husks a try in the very new future.

I have a question, I have left a scrap of leather in a cold coffee bath for about 30+ hours now and have reached a color that I like. Does it damage the leather or affect the strength at all by leaving it soaking for that long?

I have also come across an article that mentions that you can use salt for berry based dyes, and vinegar for plant based dyes, to act as a mordant. Would salt damage the leather at all by either letting it soak in bath that contained salt for 24+ hours?

With vinegaroon, or even if I was to use vinegar as a mordant with my other dyes, would that make the leather stink of vinegar?

Also, does dipping the leather and allowing it to soak in any of these baths make a difference whether the bath is hot or cold? Basically, I am just trying to avoid damaging the the leather.

Thanks!

Zayne

[anhurset]

There seems to be no need to use a mordant of any type with leather and yes the salts would likely cause a problem with cracking and over drying of the leather. It's best just to ignore the mordants and any info in regards to boiling the material you're dying, in general hot liquids and leather do not mix well.

I'm unsure how long is too long when it comes to immersion dying, most of my pieces stay in for far less than an hour and I've only done extended soaks, 8+ hours, a hand full of times. In fact, it was those extended soaks which turned me off of coffee dyes, long soak times, long drying times and a color range I was just never happy with.

Using vinegar will result in a vinegar odor which will dissipate fairly quickly if the item is left in an open breezy area with plenty of sunlight. If you use vinegar for any reason make sure that you neutralize it with a baking soda and water bath and then rinse with clean water to remove the excess baking soda. I've heard of people venting their vinegaroon until it no longer smells and while I've managed to decrease the odor, I've never been able to completely eliminate it. The smell doesn't really bother me, but I always make sure my customers know what to do to speed up the dissipation.

I rarely immerse leather in liquids above body temperature, as stated above, hot liquid and leather don't mix well. As to the cold, I keep my dye vats in a kitchen with no temperature control (I have a VERY understanding wife), so hot in the summer, cold in the winter. I've noticed no impact on my walnut dyes, but cold temps do affect my vinegaroon to the point that I've he had to start storing it in the living room during the winter. I'm not sure about temps below the low 40s though.

[zaynexpetty]

There seems to be no need to use a mordant of any type with leather and yes the salts would likely cause a problem with cracking and over drying of the leather. It's best just to ignore the mordants and any info in regards to boiling the material you're dying, in general hot liquids and leather do not mix well.

I'm unsure how long is too long when it comes to immersion dying, most of my pieces stay in for far less than an hour and I've only done extended soaks, 8+ hours, a hand full of times. In fact, it was those extended soaks which turned me off of coffee dyes, long soak times, long drying times and a color range I was just never happy with.

Using vinegar will result in a vinegar odor which will dissipate fairly quickly if the item is left in an open breezy area with plenty of sunlight. If you use vinegar for any reason make sure that you neutralize it with a baking soda and water bath and then rinse with clean water to remove the excess baking soda. I've heard of people venting their vinegaroon until it no longer smells and while I've managed to decrease the odor, I've never been able to completely eliminate it. The smell doesn't really bother me, but I always make sure my customers know what to do to speed up the dissipation.

I rarely immerse leather in liquids above body temperature, as stated above, hot liquid and leather don't mix well. As to the cold, I keep my dye vats in a kitchen with no temperature control (I have a VERY understanding wife), so hot in the summer, cold in the winter. I've noticed no impact on my walnut dyes, but cold temps do affect my vinegaroon to the point that I've he had to start storing it in the living room during the winter. I'm not sure about temps below the low 40s though.

I see! I kind of figured so about the mordants concerning leather (maybe because tannins are used in the tanning process of veg tan leather). I have read that you can get black when using black walnut husks, have you had any experience with this? I would prefer avoiding the smell of vinegar all together, if at all possible.

Thanks!

P.S. - It does sound like you have a VERY understanding wife! My girlfriend would not be happy. Luckily I have an ugly basement room that no one ever goes in.

[anhurset]

I've managed VERY dark brown, but never quite black with black walnuts. You can make "iron black" without vinegar, de-oiled iron/steel immersed in water and allowed to rust the slow way. Im talking 1-2 years before you start getting an acceptable black and 5 years for a really good black. No vinegar smell though. Down here in the South you can often fnd 55 gallon drums that have been setting that way for a decade. If you run across something like that and have a chance to salvage the water do it, transfer it to a useable container feed it a bit of iron/steel and top off the water from time to time.

[zaynexpetty]

I've managed VERY dark brown, but never quite black with black walnuts. You can make "iron black" without vinegar, de-oiled iron/steel immersed in water and allowed to rust the slow way. Im talking 1-2 years before you start getting an acceptable black and 5 years for a really good black. No vinegar smell though. Down here in the South you can often fnd 55 gallon drums that have been setting that way for a decade. If you run across something like that and have a chance to salvage the water do it, transfer it to a useable container feed it a bit of iron/steel and top off the water from time to time.

I think I am going to try out the vinegaroon. I have done a little more research about it and about removing the odor, and I feel more confident.

A couple of questions, how exactly do you "burn the oil" out of 0000 steel wool? You mentioned it earlier, and I have read it in all the threads concerning vinegar black.

When you say walnut husks, you mean the green outer part of the walnut, before the shell? Where would I get walnut husks if I don't have/know anyone with a walnut tree?

Thank you so much, by the way. I really can't believe how helpful everyone on leatherworker.net is.

Zayne

Also, If I did want to make some brown dye with walnut

[anhurset]

I've used two methods to remove the oil from steel wool, soaking in acetone and allowing to drip dry and dousing with a flammable liquid (acetone, lighter fluid, denatured alcohol, etc) and then setting it on fire. I've found both methods to be equal when it comes to oil removal from fresh steel wool, in the end I tend to fall back on the soak and drip dry method as the douse and light method can be scary. I pour acetone into a bowl and swirl pads individually ensuring that each are saturated to the point of dripping and then hang them, outside, to dry. Nitrile gloves will protect you from the acetone if you're leery of skin contact. Lighting the solvents on fire can be really sketchy, if you go that route then I really suggest using lighter fluid simply so you can see the flame. Acetone and denatured alcohol both have a tendance to burn with a near invisible flame.

Yes, technically you want the walnut husk, the outer fleshy skin surrounding the nut. You can buy dehydrated black walnut husk from natural dye suppliers and I've heard of people using the walnut cleaning medium sold by ammunition reloading companies, both routes are a bit expensive though. Harvesting yourself is really the cheapest route, I know walnuts can be found in the northeast section of Utah and the Navajo, Hopi and Zuni all are known to have traditionally used walnut dyes so I would assume that they can be found in the four corners region. Utah's a big state though. Butternut, pecan and hickory husks can all be used too, though they do result in slightly lighter colors.

[zaynexpetty]

I've used two methods to remove the oil from steel wool, soaking in acetone and allowing to drip dry and dousing with a flammable liquid (acetone, lighter fluid, denatured alcohol, etc) and then setting it on fire. I've found both methods to be equal when it comes to oil removal from fresh steel wool, in the end I tend to fall back on the soak and drip dry method as the douse and light method can be scary. I pour acetone into a bowl and swirl pads individually ensuring that each are saturated to the point of dripping and then hang them, outside, to dry. Nitrile gloves will protect you from the acetone if you're leery of skin contact. Lighting the solvents on fire can be really sketchy, if you go that route then I really suggest using lighter fluid simply so you can see the flame. Acetone and denatured alcohol both have a tendance to burn with a near invisible flame.

Yes, technically you want the walnut husk, the outer fleshy skin surrounding the nut. You can buy dehydrated black walnut husk from natural dye suppliers and I've heard of people using the walnut cleaning medium sold by ammunition reloading companies, both routes are a bit expensive though. Harvesting yourself is really the cheapest route, I know walnuts can be found in the northeast section of Utah and the Navajo, Hopi and Zuni all are known to have traditionally used walnut dyes so I would assume that they can be found in the four corners region. Utah's a big state though. Butternut, pecan and hickory husks can all be used too, though they do result in slightly lighter colors.

I actually just realized that a family friend has a few black walnut trees. Do you know what time of year is best to harvest the nuts for the husks? I think they are probably still green now, does that matter? Is there a method to drying them out (if necessary).

Thanks.

[anhurset]

Here in TN they start hitting the ground in mass in mid September, as long as they're on the ground they're usable, so just tell the family friend to give you a yell when they're falling. With the soak method it doesn't matter what color they are, green, brown, black, or how rotten they are. You also don't have to dry the husks, just take the nuts, husk and all, pack them into a bucket/barrel/trashcan, cram as many of them in as you can, cover them with water (they'll try the float a bit) and then loosely cover the container. You're just trying the keep debris out, the nuts will need to vent a bit because they are going to ferment and you don't want your container to explode. Check them once or twice a week and top off the water a bit as needed, when the husks start sliding off with gentile hand pressure they're ready, down here in TN it usually takes about two weeks to get to the sloughing point. You've got a choice once you reach this point, you can either go ahead and peel them and make your dye, or you can weight the nuts down, top off the water and wait a bit longer.

If you keep them submerged and don't stir them the tannins will destroy any bacteria in the liquid and create an anaerobic environment, this drastically slows the decay of the nuts while at the same time leaches more tannins and color into the water. This method gives an instant punch to the dye color as there is more color in the initial boil water, it also allows you to ignore the soaking nuts for an extended period of time. The last batch I boiled up was in May of this year, from nuts I harvested in late September of last year. There was no mold, the tannins and anaerobic environment saw to that, and the nuts were no softer nor more fermented than they had been a few weeks after I started the soak.

Regardless of which way you go with the soak you'll need to peel the husks. You'll be doing the next step with your hands, so unless you want to spend the next 7+ days with brown fingers wear some gloves. You're just separating the husk from the nut, it's easy and shouldn't require any tools, though sometimes it's nice to have a knife to create a starting slit. You can toss the nuts if you want, but you'll loose a fair amount of husk meat on the nuts and adding them to the boil seems to make no difference to the dye. I've used husk alone and husk and nut and I've seen no real difference.

At this point I toss everything in an old pillow case, tie it off, toss it into my boil container and add the soak water.

Use that soak water! It's got a massive amount of color and tannins in it and without it your dye will be weak.

When I do small batches (very rare) I'll do the boil in the house, it will put off a smell, not bad, not good, but it can get strong with the multiple hours of boiling. Most of my batches are big though, usually ending with 6-7 gallons of dye, so I do most of my boiling outside, in a washtub, over a fire. Whichever way you go you're looking at several hours (minimum of 3, but more likely 4-5) of boiling. It's hard to describe what you're looking for in the dye, it needs to be thicker than water but not really syrupy. You can test small amounts while you're cooking, just make sure it's around body temperature before applying to leather. Once you think it's done let it cool, remove the sack of husks (set it in a separate container, it's full of dye and you don't want to waste it) and strain as you decant. The straining doesn't have to be super fine, I use a little wire mesh kitchen strainer, you're just trying to get any big chunks. Find some way to suspend that sack of husks so you can drain the rest of the liquid from it, squeeze it out too, that's the ambrosia of dye trapped in there don't loose it. Add your alcohol, a minimum of 1 cup alcohol/2 quarts dye. The last I read Chuck Burrows had stopped adding alcohol to his dyes and swore that it upped the color. I haven't tried it yet, but if Burrows swears by it then it must be worth a shot.

[zaynexpetty]

Here in TN they start hitting the ground in mass in mid September, as long as they're on the ground they're usable, so just tell the family friend to give you a yell when they're falling. With the soak method it doesn't matter what color they are, green, brown, black, or how rotten they are. You also don't have to dry the husks, just take the nuts, husk and all, pack them into a bucket/barrel/trashcan, cram as many of them in as you can, cover them with water (they'll try the float a bit) and then loosely cover the container. You're just trying the keep debris out, the nuts will need to vent a bit because they are going to ferment and you don't want your container to explode. Check them once or twice a week and top off the water a bit as needed, when the husks start sliding off with gentile hand pressure they're ready, down here in TN it usually takes about two weeks to get to the sloughing point. You've got a choice once you reach this point, you can either go ahead and peel them and make your dye, or you can weight the nuts down, top off the water and wait a bit longer.

If you keep them submerged and don't stir them the tannins will destroy any bacteria in the liquid and create an anaerobic environment, this drastically slows the decay of the nuts while at the same time leaches more tannins and color into the water. This method gives an instant punch to the dye color as there is more color in the initial boil water, it also allows you to ignore the soaking nuts for an extended period of time. The last batch I boiled up was in May of this year, from nuts I harvested in late September of last year. There was no mold, the tannins and anaerobic environment saw to that, and the nuts were no softer nor more fermented than they had been a few weeks after I started the soak.

Regardless of which way you go with the soak you'll need to peel the husks. You'll be doing the next step with your hands, so unless you want to spend the next 7+ days with brown fingers wear some gloves. You're just separating the husk from the nut, it's easy and shouldn't require any tools, though sometimes it's nice to have a knife to create a starting slit. You can toss the nuts if you want, but you'll loose a fair amount of husk meat on the nuts and adding them to the boil seems to make no difference to the dye. I've used husk alone and husk and nut and I've seen no real difference.

At this point I toss everything in an old pillow case, tie it off, toss it into my boil container and add the soak water.

Use that soak water! It's got a massive amount of color and tannins in it and without it your dye will be weak.

When I do small batches (very rare) I'll do the boil in the house, it will put off a smell, not bad, not good, but it can get strong with the multiple hours of boiling. Most of my batches are big though, usually ending with 6-7 gallons of dye, so I do most of my boiling outside, in a washtub, over a fire. Whichever way you go you're looking at several hours (minimum of 3, but more likely 4-5) of boiling. It's hard to describe what you're looking for in the dye, it needs to be thicker than water but not really syrupy. You can test small amounts while you're cooking, just make sure it's around body temperature before applying to leather. Once you think it's done let it cool, remove the sack of husks (set it in a separate container, it's full of dye and you don't want to waste it) and strain as you decant. The straining doesn't have to be super fine, I use a little wire mesh kitchen strainer, you're just trying to get any big chunks. Find some way to suspend that sack of husks so you can drain the rest of the liquid from it, squeeze it out too, that's the ambrosia of dye trapped in there don't loose it. Add your alcohol, a minimum of 1 cup alcohol/2 quarts dye. The last I read Chuck Burrows had stopped adding alcohol to his dyes and swore that it upped the color. I haven't tried it yet, but if Burrows swears by it then it must be worth a shot.

How much water would you suggest putting in the container for the pre-soak? level/a couple of inches above the water? or does it not matter?

Also, when doing the pre-soak, is temperature a factor when letting them ferment? Would it be okay if I left them outside in 60-80 degree weather? Would it make a difference if it were in the sunlight vs. shade?

I just filled a large pot half full with walnuts and put water over them and they are all floating, should I weigh them down so they are completely submerged?

Sorry for the plethora of questions, I just want to make sure I'm getting this right.

Thanks again,

Zayne

Edited September 2, 2014 by zaynexpetty

[anhurset]

The water level can vary a bit, when I check and refill every couple of days I try to take the water to just over the nuts, but level with or slightly below is okay. Fill the pot FULL with nuts (leave an inch or so of space at the top of the pot), the more nuts you put in the fewer will float as the weight of the nuts on top will keep the lower levels submerged. I've never really experimented with temperature during the soak, I usually just fill a couple of empty kitty litter buckets and set them on the porch, but this being a fermentation/rotting process I would assume that warmer temperatures would speed up the process.

[zaynexpetty]

The water level can vary a bit, when I check and refill every couple of days I try to take the water to just over the nuts, but level with or slightly below is okay. Fill the pot FULL with nuts (leave an inch or so of space at the top of the pot), the more nuts you put in the fewer will float as the weight of the nuts on top will keep the lower levels submerged. I've never really experimented with temperature during the soak, I usually just fill a couple of empty kitty litter buckets and set them on the porch, but this being a fermentation/rotting process I would assume that warmer temperatures would speed up the process.

Awesome. Thanks.

The walnuts are 1 week into fermentation. Seems like it is going well so far.

When I go to boil the nuts, you mentioned that you haven't noticed a difference when adding the nuts along with the peeled husks to the dye. Would it be safe to assume that peeling the husks isn't necessary?

Also, I assume that when boiling the husks/nuts for 3+ hours you'll be also boiling off a lot of liquid. Should I be adding water to the boil as needed? Or should I just leave it and wait til the boil produces a somewhat milky texture? Would adding a small amount of steel wool to the boil be at all recommended? The majority of the walnuts I gathered were old and rotten for the most part, not a ton of husk, so I am kind of worried that the dye might not turn out too color/lightfast. There will probably be about a half gallon worth of soak water remaining after removing the nuts from the container.

Zayne

Edited September 8, 2014 by zaynexpetty

[anhurset]

You need to husk the nuts, by removing the husk you expose more surface area and speed up you dying process. I assume that a useable dye could be made without peeling them, but I'd imagine it would at least double, if not triple the boil time. Every recipe I've found says to husk the nuts for best results.

Yes, you'll need to add water to the boil from time to time. I can't really the you how much or how often, if the level looks too low ( less than half the liquid you started with) add water, but don't take it quite up to your original water line, you're wanting the dye thicker than your starting liquid.

It's really hard to screw up this dye, if you cook it too long (as long as you didn't burn it, which is very hard to do) just add water and reheat, if you didn't cook it long enough, throw it back on the stove and cook it some more.

[Oldtoolsniper]

For years I have used whole walnuts to boil and dye traps. It turns them black after they are rusted. The concentrated stuff is called logwood trap dye. It's used as a form of rust presevative and has been used for more than a hundred years as far as my reading has revealed to me. I have also used the leaves from maple trees for brown on traps, I discovered this by accident, leaves in a bucket of water turned the water a golden brown.

If you hold the dye over it molds. I've had some for years in a stainless steel crab pot. I just let the water evaporate and add water when I use it again in the fall. It stains everything it touches to include the grass. It will not completely come back out of jeans either.

I just use whole walnuts. I never tried breaking them up. They do have worms in them here in Iowa if you pick them up on the ground.

Be prepared to for the squirrels, they will find the walnuts unles they are in a container they cannot get into or you submerge them as soon as you gather them. They will shell them for you but they tend to strew the husks all over the yard so it's not really beneficial.

[anhurset]

We get some wormy ones down here at times, mostly when it stays warm a bit later into the year, it's rare though.

I'm sure that the whole, unhusked but would work, but every set of dye instructions I've read have all said to husk them, it takes 15 minutes to do a 5 gallon bucket full so I've seen no reason not to. Logically speaking husking them makes sense, you expose more surface area to the liquid which allows the dye/stain to form faster.

I didn't think about the squirrel issue, the squirrel population in my area is very small, we've got a lot of coyotes and stray cats in this area and it keeps the population down. If you've got squirrel issues then yeah, take the necessary steps to guard against them.

[zaynexpetty]

We get some wormy ones down here at times, mostly when it stays warm a bit later into the year, it's rare though.

I'm sure that the whole, unhusked but would work, but every set of dye instructions I've read have all said to husk them, it takes 15 minutes to do a 5 gallon bucket full so I've seen no reason not to. Logically speaking husking them makes sense, you expose more surface area to the liquid which allows the dye/stain to form faster.

I didn't think about the squirrel issue, the squirrel population in my area is very small, we've got a lot of coyotes and stray cats in this area and it keeps the population down. If you've got squirrel issues then yeah, take the necessary steps to guard against them.

GAH! I just found out that the "black walnuts" that I had been fermenting are, in fact, english walnuts. For some reason the family friend had thought they were black. Back to square one.