Help With Sharpening This Tool Please

[Woodcarver G]

Hi , I've been browsing this forum for some time now, but as I am more from the wood working side of things a lot of terms and technique's talked about on this site go right over my head, so I have always shied away from commenting and just been happy to read and learn, (as much as I can follow anyway!)

I recently won a cutting tool on 'the bay' ,, and it's a bit embarrassing to admit and not what I would usually do,, but I had no idea really of the function or use of this thing,,, I was simply attracted to the stamp on the blade, indicating that it was made by 'Taylors eye witness'. a name that I am familiar with as a user of vintage straight razors. So anyway I saw this tool, it looked to have a nice rosewood handle and was in good condition so I placed an opening bid and forgot all about it as there was still around 5 days to run and I was not really interested in chasing it, so I just assumed that I would be outbid, (probably in the last 4 seconds of the auction as standard!!)

Anyway a day after the auction had ended I checked my purchase history, and to my surprise I had won this item.... Nobody else had bid! (It did cross my mind that perhaps people who knew more about it may have spotted something I missed and avoided!)

I promptly paid and awaited its arrival. I had guessed it was a leather working knife of some kind, which made me think of this site which had opened my eyes to the world of the leather worker and all the different tools that you guys use, which I had very little knowledge of until I found this site.

I have tried to do a bit of research on this knife to see if I could figure out its function and how to use it/ sharpen it, but No Luck!!

I've seen similar knives referred to as head knives but I am not sure,, I am even starting to think that perhaps I was wrong to begin with and it is in fact not a leather workers knife at all,,, but then what is it!?!?

If anybody on this forum could provide me with any info on this tool, it would be appreciated , and as the title suggests, any help with how to sharpen this thing would be greatly appreciated.

I tried to sharpen on a flat stone,, (Naniwa 1K) but the blade just wont sit right on the stone, even if I tried to sharpen in sections I do not think I would be able to get any kind of even contact ,, within less then 1 min I realised I would do more harm then good and called it a day with that. I have debated wrapping wet n dry around a thin dowel and sharpening across the blade like a sickle stone sort of thing but I have decided to seek some advice before I proceed as I am not in any great hurry and I don't want to damage the edge. When it comes to chisels, straight knives, razors and even gouges, I have never had any problems, but this thing has got me a bit stuck!!

.... I will try upload some pics I just took,, sorry if the angle's are not the best,,, the blade is about 2mm thick at the back (where the spine would be on a straight blade) it tapers to 1mm at the curve then back to 2mm before the point part,,

Thanks in advance,, this post ended up being a lot longer then I intended , hope I have not sent anybody to sleep

[DavidL]

How are the Naniwa stones? Im contemplating getting a shapton pro 1k/ 5k or naniwa super stone (theres so many different ones I can't decide). Id like a Chosera but they are 150 for a stone.

I have a similar blade that you have. Its a clicker knife, the curve doesnt dip down as far. The maker of my knife responded to my e mail and said to get a dowel and wrap sandpaper around it (600 grit which is I think 1-2k water stone). Another option for stones is a curved waterstone. The last way I can think of, which is what I ended up doing was to just sharpen the first couple cm of the blade with the stone. Eventually the curve will become more horizontal but at least can be reshaped with your naniwa to re establish the curve.

[Woodcarver G]

I see, thanks for your quick reply, so it's a clicker knife? I'm very green with leather tools! Glad I wernt too far off with the sharpening ideas.

Yes I would definatley recommend the Naniwa stones, they are very good for money, I would say that they are every bit as effective as the king stones (which are a bit more up the price chain,, but not as far as some! I do know what you mean, it is hard to choose, there's soo many out there, not to mention all the natural stone lovers.. I do wish I had more of a budget to do some experimenting with different stones,, but I guess for now I will stick with a system that works for me. I have a naniwa 1K bevel setter, so to speak and a naniwa 3K and 6K then I progress to a fine Welsh slate hone stone then leather strop with chromium oxide paste and that usually insures a good finish ( except with this curved blade!) I could probably get better results with a better budget, but this system is achievable on a reasonable budget and works good for me

Thanks for the tip on the 600grit being equivalent to 1-2K,, as I was thinking they were like for like,, so the 1000 grit paper was equivalent to a 1K stone,, so I was worried where I could go from 2500grit (the highest sand paper grit I have).

Will sign off for now and check back in the afternoon.

Cheers, all the best

[DavidL]

Im not sure if thats a clicker knife or a pull cut knife or something like that. Mine is much smaller in size.

The Naniwa "chosera" are suppose to be top of the line somewhere around 150 USD for a high grit. I hear king is the cheaper alternative to Naniwa. Does 1k,6k, then green compound work as a sharp enough cutting edge? If not I was planning to get a chinese waterstone 12k as well for 25 dollars.

[electrathon]

It is a carpet knife.

[NVLeatherWorx]

Yup, plain ole carpet knife and not really a tool that you would want to take to some nice leather.

[Woodcarver G]

Im not sure if thats a clicker knife or a pull cut knife or something like that. Mine is much smaller in size.

The Naniwa "chosera" are suppose to be top of the line somewhere around 150 USD for a high grit. I hear king is the cheaper alternative to Naniwa. Does 1k,6k, then green compound work as a sharp enough cutting edge? If not I was planning to get a chinese waterstone 12k as well for 25 dollars.

Oh, yes , sorry was a bit tired last night (UK time),, the 'chosera' stones are indeed very good I have heard, but yes very expensive. Sorry I should have clarified, I have these Naniwa 'home series' (or something to that affect) and a 5-6k Naniwa 'super stone series (more expensive then the home series but less then the 'chosera' , it was quite a long time ago that I purchased them on a German website called "finetools". If you type that then it should come up with an online shop called Dieter Schmid, finetools ,and they have a good priced set of stones, right from top to bottom price range, they are a very good shop for all kinds of wood working supplies, though I am not sure what delivery would be like to your part of the world,, maybe check it out if you have time. I just had a look and the 'chosera' at 1k is only 59 euros, but by the time it gets up to the 10K the price has gone a bit astronomical! (though the 5K is less then half the price of the 10!)

Anyway sorry for the mix up, yes I have the 'home stone series' (which I think has been replaced by the "economical series" , or something like that, so I am not sure if the stones I got are still available but at the time they where very cheap,, around £12-14 each for the 1K and the 3K. the 5or6K Naniwa 'super stone series' did set me back a bit more,, but again not as much as the chosera..

All this talk of the chosera stones has made me want to try them, but I would only really want the 10K,,, and that's the one that costs a Bomb so I will leave it for now

In answer to your question, I would say that you can get a decent edge from 1k thru 6k then the strop, but I must say that the finishing stone at the end does seem to make quite a difference to how 'refined' the edge is. If it is within your budget then I would say go for it. I was also considering getting a 12K chinese stone because my natural welsh slate has a grit of about 9-10K, I would say, so Ive been tempted, but as the system works for now, i've just left it as it is,

If you do try the 12K, feel free to report back and tell me what you thaught of it

[Woodcarver G]

It is a carpet knife.

I see, thanks. Any tips on how to sharpen this blade>? I might just try youtube 'how to' videos on curved blades/carpet knives. Cheers for the response

Yup, plain ole carpet knife and not really a tool that you would want to take to some nice leather.

Ok, I will bear that in mind. I was going to sharpen and put in the tool box and use for any future leather cutting operations, so good thing I now know not to!

[electrathon]

The inside radius is sharpened with a round stone. A flat stone will not get into the curve.

[Oldtoolsniper]

http://billhooks.co.uk/other-edge-tools/

These are also called hawkbill knives. Do a search on google and you will find the correct way to sharpen your tool.

One use for them is cutting hides. I use a similar knife to cut deer hides that have hair on them from the back side. I skin, flesh, wash and dry the hides. They are then cut from the flesh side into small pieces for fly tyers. The hide is stretched on a two by four frame and cut so the hair does not press against anything. With the blade hooked like that I can line the handle up on the sharpie line and the tip is still cutting the hide. All hair on hides are cut from the backside to preserve the fur or hair on the hide.

[DavidL]

I think personally the best way would be to sharpen the tip to 1.5cm away from the tip The rest of the blade wont be cutting leather unless you choose to cut it similar to how a draw gauge cuts leather. That way you can use a flat sharpening stone.

[Woodcarver G]

http://billhooks.co.uk/other-edge-tools/

These are also called hawkbill knives. Do a search on google and you will find the correct way to sharpen your tool.

One use for them is cutting hides. I use a similar knife to cut deer hides that have hair on them from the back side. I skin, flesh, wash and dry the hides. They are then cut from the flesh side into small pieces for fly tyers. The hide is stretched on a two by four frame and cut so the hair does not press against anything. With the blade hooked like that I can line the handle up on the sharpie line and the tip is still cutting the hide. All hair on hides are cut from the backside to preserve the fur or hair on the hide.

Thanks for that info, a very interesting read and a shame a lot of these patterns are no longer manufactured! I personally would find a 'block hook' very useful for certain applications. All in all food for thaught, and yes I think I will do a google search on how to sharpen this knife,, now I have a name other then "curved knife", so that should help with the search results

I think I read a thread of yours about restoring a round knife or head knife? was interesting stuff as I am also into restoring old tools, (mainly chisels, gouges and straight razors).

[Oldtoolsniper]

Yes that was my post on the Rose head knife. I read a lot of these posts and learn a lot. I don't post a lot and I only post questions when I can't find the information any other way.

I only post about things that I have experience with and have actually done with my hands.

I enjoy learning about this stuff. In most cases the older tools are far better than anything getting produced today. I rehabilitate old wood working tools as well. I've learned to sharpen everything I own and most all of my friends drop their sharp pointy things off for me to sharpen. Sharp tools is what lead me into leatherwork, a sheath is cheaper than stitches.

Sharpening is just part of the skill set you need for woodworking. When it comes to the old tools I work on it amazes me how many of them I get with blades installed upside down and how many folks think a grinder makes a sharp tool. Taking that skill set to leather tools was pretty easy.

I also run a large trap line every year and I put up all of my fur so I skin, flesh, stretch and handle hundreds of pelts every year. Sharp tools are required for that too.

I know this is off the subject but what do you do with straight razors?

[WyomingSlick]

When it comes to chisels, straight knives, razors and even gouges, I have never had any problems, but this thing has got me a bit stuck!!

....

You can sharpen a gouge? And this is giving you trouble?

[Woodcarver G]

Yes that was my post on the Rose head knife. I read a lot of these posts and learn a lot. I don't post a lot and I only post questions when I can't find the information any other way.

I only post about things that I have experience with and have actually done with my hands.

I enjoy learning about this stuff. In most cases the older tools are far better than anything getting produced today. I rehabilitate old wood working tools as well. I've learned to sharpen everything I own and most all of my friends drop their sharp pointy things off for me to sharpen. Sharp tools is what lead me into leatherwork, a sheath is cheaper than stitches.

Sharpening is just part of the skill set you need for woodworking. When it comes to the old tools I work on it amazes me how many of them I get with blades installed upside down and how many folks think a grinder makes a sharp tool. Taking that skill set to leather tools was pretty easy.

I also run a large trap line every year and I put up all of my fur so I skin, flesh, stretch and handle hundreds of pelts every year. Sharp tools are required for that too.

I know this is off the subject but what do you do with straight razors?

Yes its true that learning about something can open the door to learning about something else. Either out of necessity, or just out of a new curiosity! I got into restoring old tools out of learning woodcarving. Then in turn I decided to learn general carpentry. The information on these forums has been invaluable in learning about the restoring side of things, as none of the guys in the workshop I am studying seem to have any interest or knowledge about tools really. I see what you mean where a lot of people seem to think their chisels and plane blades are razor sharp straight off the Tormek! And once when I showed an assistant in the workshop who is a working tradesman a beautiful old Mathieson, Glasgow bevel edge chisel tang, with wonderfully thin sides, no rust at all, just a lovely black even patina and in great condition,, (I made an 18th century style octagonal handle out of some scrap ebony), his only comment was,, 'that blade looks a bit old and dirty".. Don't get me wrong he is a very competent guy,, just no love or appreciation of the workmanship of these old bits of steel, the like you just cannot find nowadays!. So I turned to the internet to learn what I have learned so far about chisels, planes ect

My study of woodworking and restoring old tools is still very much in its infancy but I am getting there bit by bit, and there is always more to learn.. a lot more in my case! But there is only soo much time in the day and only soo much space to store knowledge in this brain of mine,,, but I do my best anyway!

The trapping, is that for hunting or for the fur and pelt side of things? that's another thing I would like to learn about but have never had the opportunity in concrete London UK,, (Though of course if I had decided to learn more about it, I'm sure I could have , even if I do come from a city)

It would be interesting to learn to work with deer hides ect,, I know what you mean with the un-covered sharp objects! I have a few Carving knife/Kogotana's that I made wooden handles for, but leather sheaths would be cool to learn to make,

As for the straight razors (cut throats) , I restore them simply because I have been shaving with them for the past 3 years or so. Some I restore for fun (and to shave with), others I restore to sell on.

It all comes from a love of old Sheffield steel really! I decided one day that I must try a Joseph Rodgers and son razor,, so I hunted around for a while and found one in very nice condition and for a very good price, (straight razors on the whole fetch far lower prices then other types of vintage knives) though there are some exemptions from this! After that I just caught the straight shaving bug. Its amazing how cheap you can pick up say, an old 19th century horn handled Sheffield wedge razor thats just in need to restoration, for a fraction of the price of a good quality modern straight, (which in my opinion just cannot compare in quality and style to the oldies)

Thing with razors though is that most of them made after about 1870 or so are hollow ground, the blades are very thin, so there is not much scope for metal removal to get rid of heavy pitting ect.

A chisel in a condition that would be quite easily restorable in terms of rusting and pitting would be only fit for the bin , or a shelf, (not for the intended purpose of shaving) in a razor in the same condition. With wedge bladed razors there is a bit more metal to lose, so with patience and care they can be brought back from worse conditions then say, a full hollow ground razor, so you do have to be careful when hunting for them and follow slightly different rules then with chisels and gouges.

It really opened my eyes up when I started reading some of the big shaving forums,, I thaught I was keen on razors, but a lot of these guys take it to whole other levels when it comes to the 'perfect shave' and cut throat razor. The knowledge some of them have on the subject astounds me!

They are also Mad about stones and honing in general, so I have learned a Lot about sharpening Straight blades and flat stones/strops through learning about razors

But this curved blade, the hawksbill? I have is a different beast and I will have to learn and try a new approach!

It all comes from a love of old steel really

[Woodcarver G]

You can sharpen a gouge? And this is giving you trouble?

Haha yes afraid so! I guess it's all about experience.I just use flat stones and a small fine slip stone for burrs ect and a strop, and I now get great results. It did take me quite a while to get the action, (Ive never bothered with gouge stones, though they do look very handy and make sharpening a gouge as easy as sharpening a flat chisel really).

So I guess it's just down to experience,, I did struggle initially with sharpening my gouges and V-gouges , swan necks ect but with time, you just find a way to make it work.

In the case of these hawksbill knives, I have no experience with even using them, so yes I have been a bit stuck

[Woodcarver G]

You can sharpen a gouge? And this is giving you trouble?

Oh, yes I see. I was a bit misleading with the "i've Never had any problems" part

what I mean is that at least from the start, I got to use a gouge sharp, before I had to sharpen it, and I knew it was a gouge, or chisel say, so hence knew how to go about learning to sharpen.

As this knife was just a mystery object to me,, who's function and use eluded me, I was a bit lost with it

[Oldtoolsniper]

One thing for sure is the difference between what is considered old in this country compared to yours. Something made in the 50's here is considered an antique here in the United States and I'm pretty sure something from the 50's in the UK is just considered used.

In my previous life as a Marine I made it around the world twice. Never made to your country. The oldest modern country was Japan and it was an eye opening experience in wood working tools and how they are used. They are still doing the apprenticeship style of learning the craft, the workmanship that I saw was incredible. I've never seen anything like it here in the states. They have tools that cost a lot of money here in the states just piled up on the shelves in the hardware stores over there. Every kind of waterstone you could imagine for next to nothing.

Perspective comes from where you are. I get hired to trap animals that are destructive to farming and roadways here and think nothing of it. I've only taken public transportation twice in my life, once in Australia and once in Washington D.C. I drive the majority of the time in the country on gravel roads. We have so many deer here that it is dangerous to drive from sunset to sunrise.

If a tool is 200 years old in this country it most likely was not made here. Things are definitely different between our two countries.

I would really be surprised if that knife you have was made for flooring. I betting it's a little older than that. The nice thing about knives is that they can be used for whatever the owner of the knife chooses to use it for. I bet there are a lot of head knives being used to chop herbs in kitchens around the world.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Oldtoolsniper