441 Machines, Interesting Observation

[Ken B]

All walking foot machines whether compound (triple) feed, or dual feed, have two feet: one each; inside and outside. These two feet must alternate up and down a certain distance to do their walk of life. Typically, a minimum alternation of 1/8 inch is required. More often than not, users increase the lift of the feet to climb over new layers that are regularly encountered. The higher the alternating feet lift, the less room there is for material. Thus, a machine with feet that can be raised up 1 inch cannot sew any thickness exceeding 7/8 inch, if even that much. Some machines have other mechanical limiters that reduce their maximum thickness even further.

I own a Cowboy CB4500 (441 clone). Due to me making numerous changes and adjustments, when a 7/8" thick project came along, it no longer lifted the feet high enough to clear the leather. I had to restore the original configuration in order to get the feet up over 1 inch (original was 1 1/8" lift). The point of the needle sits at about 1 1/8" at TDC. The feet need not lift beyond that height.

Some machines ship with less lift than others. Everything depends on how it was setup by the dealer you buy it from.

That makes sense, thanks Wiz.

So it's not due to "special parts", it's just adjustments

[Darren Brosowski]

It is possible to get the 441 to sew through over an inch of hard leather but you will be straining the machine frame beyond what it was designed for.

The Singer 97-10 will sew through 1" all day long but it is a short arm that weighs almost as much as a 441 so it has the structural rigidity to handle it.

All walking foot machines whether compound (triple) feed, or dual feed, have two feet: one each; inside and outside. These two feet must alternate up and down a certain distance to do their walk of life. Typically, a minimum alternation of 1/8 inch is required. More often than not, users increase the lift of the feet to climb over new layers that are regularly encountered. The higher the alternating feet lift, the less room there is for material. Thus, a machine with feet that can be raised up 1 inch cannot sew any thickness exceeding 7/8 inch, if even that much. Some machines have other mechanical limiters that reduce their maximum thickness even further.

I own a Cowboy CB4500 (441 clone). Due to me making numerous changes and adjustments, when a 7/8" thick project came along, it no longer lifted the feet high enough to clear the leather. I had to restore the original configuration in order to get the feet up over 1 inch (original was 1 1/8" lift). The point of the needle sits at about 1 1/8" at TDC. The feet need not lift beyond that height.

Some machines ship with less lift than others. Everything depends on how it was setup by the dealer you buy it from.

[Wizcrafts]

That makes sense, thanks Wiz.

So it's not due to "special parts", it's just adjustments

I've been looking at 441 and 205 machines lately, including the machines straight from China, shipped over on a boat.

What I'm curious to know, is why do the machines from Ferdco, Techsew, Cobra, Artisan, KingMax, and Cowboy sew 7/8" and have 1" foot lift?

The other machines, Keestar, Foxsew, Hightex, Consew, Nick-O Sew, SewPro, etc, etc have 4/5" foot lift, and will sew 16/25" material.

What changes must be made to these machines to make them have 1" presser foot lift? Is this even feasible with the 205, or must the 441 be used?

The chain from the lift pedal, feeding up to the rear of the lift rod on the back and its central pivot arm, eventually connecting to the lift block inside the left face of the head must all be optimized to lift the feet to their mechanical maximum height. Tweaking, not twerking, is usually required. However, the tweaking may cause one to twerk after a few hours of frustration with the interrelated and often non-intuitive adjustments. Any binding between the links in the lift chain and the holes in the rear of the body will interfere with the lift and release. If the top mounted pressure adjuster was drilled off-center, or out of round, the lifted presser bar may hang at these altitudes. Lift related cranks inside the head may need to be removed, cleaned, polished and oiled directly, then reassembled, after ensuring that they have the necessary full range of motion without binding.

Finally, you must use the standard flat plate and (smooth) feed dog. The feed dog may need to be lowered slightly to just reach the top of the throat plate cutout.

I had to do all of the above recently, to sew a 7/8 inch thick holster. I also had to change the needle to a diamond point #25.

As for the 205 machines. it depends on who sets them up and what modifications they make. I know people who can do this in their sleep and others who can only dream of doing it. Ditto for Union Lockstitch machines.

[Darren Brosowski]

There are always ways and means to make a machine foot lift higher but the important thing is the foot lift during operation.I have figured out how to get a 441 to work up to 1" but it is only going to stress the machine so I am not going to do it unless a customer signs a waiver releasing me from all obligation.

Toledo quote 3/4" to 7/8" for the 441 and I suspect that at 7/8" you need to have at least some compressible material.

[Wizcrafts]

There are always ways and means to make a machine foot lift higher but the important thing is the foot lift during operation.I have figured out how to get a 441 to work up to 1" but it is only going to stress the machine so I am not going to do it unless a customer signs a waiver releasing me from all obligation.

Toledo quote 3/4" to 7/8" for the 441 and I suspect that at 7/8" you need to have at least some compressible material.

Not so. I got my CB4500 from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. It sewed a 7/8 inch, non-compressible sample stack of leather before I took it home.

After readjusting the feet numerous times, I had to restore the highest lift and sewing capacity for the aforementioned gun holster project. The leather was virtually non-compressible, 7/8+ inches thick. It cleared the point of the needle by about 1/8 of an inch. The feet lifted to the same height as the needle. I would not recommend sewing at that height all the time, but it is doable when needed.

If I had the space and money, I would buy a Campbell high lift .... period.