Grade of trees

[Hidemechanic]

Concerning a rawhide tree, what have your experiences been with the 'A' grades of trees that some mfgs offer and what do you feel are the advantages one over the other.

'A' grade; sewn with nylon lace, stapled cantle-gullet

'AA' grade; sewn with rawhide lace, stapled cantle-gullet

'AAA' grade;sewn with rawhide lace, hand tacked in cantle-gullet and laced at the swell-bar joint and cantle-bar joint

Peronally , with staples being used in wood working more nowadays I'd like to hear why they would be a problem for saddle trees.

Another thing I'd like to hear about is if you ever get a tree that you had to reset the tacks because they weren't set against the wood. Perhaps they pulled away during drying. I did have that happen and when I reset the tacks some of the heads popped off. Any experiences in that area?

[bruce johnson]

Nylon lace - nylon stretches and slides. Rawhide shrinks back and nylon gives. Nylon breaks and the whole line slides and loosens. Rawhide breaks and the ''memory" in it hold the line better.

Staples - I can have a stapled saddle apart in about 15 minutes. There is very little holding strength in staples. They pull out easily, usually with no tools - just pull the piece off. I would suspect that shrinking rawhide in gullets could pull them just as easy as I can. Cut tacks could probably pull easily too, especially as the rawhide and wood shrinks back a little. I would suspect that most guys are using ring shank nails. (Maybe the Nikkels will weigh in with what they use). If staples were better, they would put them on their best tree, not the lower end. They can use a gun to slog them in, that is the advantage. Same as the furniture business. Screws or ringshanks will always hold better than staples, they just take more time to put in.

The trees with loose forks have always been stapled up from the bottom in my experience. Not sure how standard that attachment method is. They have been trees from a company that has grade A, AA, and AAA trees.

For the cost differences between these trees, it may make a difference to the guys making the Buy It Nows on ebay or competing against the low ends. Not to sound snobbish, but if you are handmaking one, why start with what the tree manufacturer is essentially telling you is their lowest quality tree?

[greg gomersall]

Next time you latch onto an ol cow with your nylon twine pay attention to how much give ( stretch )is in that stuff. The stretch in nylon is one of the reasons I switched to poly thread in my machines as well. Greg

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Our views, for whatever they are worth:

When nylon is cut or wears out, as it does under stirrup leathers for example, it unravels down the whole stitch line. When rawhide is dry, you can cut the stitches and they won’t go anywhere.

Rawhide loses a lot of thickness as it dries and nails need to be reset, not because they weren’t put in right to start with, but because the hide gets that much thinner (unless you are using “chicken skin”). So if the nails are sticking out when you get a tree, the tree maker didn’t take the time to reset them often or well enough. If the heads pop off, they are cheap, poor quality nails. If they actually pull out as the hide dries, both the nails and the wood are poor quality. This might happen more commonly with staples. And how do you reset staples? You can’t. This explains why the rawhide is so often pulled away in concave areas of the tree.

We have always used 5/8” ring nails for tacking down the hide, 7/8” in the cantle thong. A few years back we got a supplier for stainless steel ring nails and have used them ever since. They are very difficult to remove (the stainless steel ones are softer and bend occasionally going in :angry: ), and it is interesting that it is harder to pull them out of the rawhide than out of the wood.

We have ripped apart a few trees when making duplicates, and have yet to find a factory tree that has been screwed together. Some of the older ones were nailed, but the newer ones we have seen have all had staples holding them together. Most hand made makers use screws, and not the cheap ones. We also glue everything together – something we have not found in factory trees either, but is often done by hand makers.

If you get a chance to rip apart some old or not so old trees, it is a learning experience. You learn a lot about quality of rawhide, ease of removing staples versus smooth nails versus ring nails, and how well or poorly the pieces are put together. You also get to see the quality of wood underneath whatever the coating is.

As for us, we only have one grade of tree. If they don't make it, we don't want it out there with our name on it.