Cyis Report post Posted February 15, 2016 as pic attached, thx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted February 15, 2016 Could be a bad sharpening job. The toes are a bit long so it probably has been sharpened. However, if in as manufactured condition, it might be set that way for right handed use. Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TinkerTailor Report post Posted February 15, 2016 Could be to get some slicing action to the cut, like holding a wood plane at an angle to control chatter. It possibly was done to add a downward force onto the leather preventing it from lifting off the table at the cutting edge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted February 15, 2016 Good point. When skiving anything, try to attack at an angle. Even the Tandy Skife should be used at an angle (although they, whoever they are, never tell you that). Of course that is for long skiving along an edge. It seems that skiving toward an edge (should we call it peeling) works ok with a blade parallel to the edge. Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyis Report post Posted February 16, 2016 Could be a bad sharpening job. The toes are a bit long so it probably has been sharpened. However, if in as manufactured condition, it might be set that way for right handed use. Art Thx Art, I thought it was a bad sharpening job too until I found more and more Vintage tools doing this. I'm right hander, not founding any advantages compared to the normal ones. TinkerTailor may got the point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted February 16, 2016 I have sharpened a fair amount of vintage tools over the years, I haven't encountered one of these yet. Who is the maker? This is probably a question for Bruce Johnson who has seen more french edgers then me for sure. I'm sticking by my guns on this one, it is a sharpening mistake. Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruce johnson Report post Posted February 16, 2016 I get them like that too, and some a lot more extreme angle. I see enough that I think it is intentional by the user. Some estate sets have had rights and lefts in a few sizes. Specialty purpose?? Somebody's mentor probably did it and on it goes. I don't see enough difference in use of angled vs straight to convince me one is superior to the other. Some of the Japanese style skiving blades have a square front edge and the English paring blades are angled. What's up with that? What do I do? The guy who taught me a lot about tools was in the business about 60 years and he never showed me any angled ones. I just square up the edge and start over. Also I grind the toes back to stick out maybe 3/32-1/8". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyis Report post Posted February 16, 2016 I get them like that too, and some a lot more extreme angle. I see enough that I think it is intentional by the user. Some estate sets have had rights and lefts in a few sizes. Specialty purpose?? Somebody's mentor probably did it and on it goes. I don't see enough difference in use of angled vs straight to convince me one is superior to the other. Some of the Japanese style skiving blades have a square front edge and the English paring blades are angled. What's up with that? What do I do? The guy who taught me a lot about tools was in the business about 60 years and he never showed me any angled ones. I just square up the edge and start over. Also I grind the toes back to stick out maybe 3/32-1/8". I ordered one Gomph with angles to figure out the differences, as you said, not superior to the other. But I wont square up the edge, cus it's not inferior for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Report post Posted February 16, 2016 Cyis, On your particular tool, I think we are reading some kind of purpose instead of sharpening and use. The toes are way to long to have come from a factory. The factory is not going to waste that much tool steel on every one they make; that would add up. If you are going to do an angle, and apparently folks were doing this, why not a more pronounced angle like a 45° or so; if going for an effect, a more pronounced angle would have more of that effect. To accomplish this on a large edger, you would be wasting a lot of tool cutting it back. I wonder if some folks tried sharpening on the edge of a wheel and got this result. I don't mind sharpening French Edgers as I have the tools for it, however, I can sympathise with the dilemma of those who don't. Any port in a storm, and if it still worked when you were finished, well then it was good enough for then. Tool companies were competitive back in the heyday of tools and harness ruled. If one of these manufacturers thought he could provide a tool with a purpose that would garner more sales or suck a little of his competitors volume, these things would be all over the place, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. As it is, I don't think these angled French Edgers were never a production item, if they were, they would have appeared in some of the old catalogs. Art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TinkerTailor Report post Posted February 17, 2016 I have heard another use for these is chamfering holes to countersink the back of rivets and things. Apparently you just put one toe in the hole and ring around the rosie. While on my bicycle today i was trying to picture what the angle of the blade and the length of the toe would do to the angle of the bevel in the hole...Cant quite grasp it yet but i know it would have an effect. Maybe the shop modified angled ones relate to this usage? Shop adaptations of tools are really fascinating when you are aware of the purpose, and can see the brilliance, However they are really frustrating when you can't see the purpose. "Why would that stupid hide smasher do that to a tool? He ruined it....." I just looked at my go-to tools and probably half are modified from their original purpose or home made. Some I bought cheap because they have been modified and were "ruined", however i saw what the deal was. My favourite stitching awl is hand ground out of a needle file, jammed into a dowel. I have modellers made out of old automotive valve stems. I got a simple looking bench knife for a couple bucks somebody has reground into a shape i had never seen before, and the more i use it, the more subtleties i find. It is amazingly useful. Perhaps some day when i have time i will post a writeup on it somewhere here.The list goes on. Some guys buy everything. Back in the day when overnight shipping and ebay were not an option, you made stuff out of what you had. I still do. That is why I go by Tinker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruce johnson Report post Posted February 17, 2016 I am with Art. This tool has been sharpened that way. When I'd get the occasional one I figured it was poor sharpening. One some you can see they held it an angle against a stone or wheel, the scratch marks showed that under magnification. I went merrily along believing that was always the case until I got a set with matched right and left Gomphs in 3/5/6 sizes in an old harness makers chest. Gomph likely didn't do it, and that led me to believe some special purpose or the way a guy was taught. Since then I have got two more pretty intact estate sets of similar vintage with matching rights and lefts in either Gomph or HF Osborne. These sets all came from within a close enough region of each other. These were all level on the bottoms and looks like these users knew what they were doing when they modified them. Same shop?similar purpose? Same mentor? Still I sit here - without a definite reason why they did this. I mean I can see the right or left for right and left handed users. What I am still trying to wrap my brain around is why rights and lefts in matched sizes in the same sets? What special purpose was there to these 100 years ago? When I square them up one side of me says "Bruce, this guy when to a lot of effort to modify this French edger his way and you are wrecking it!". The guy on the other shoulder stabs me with the pitchfork and says "Dude, you're just fixing what that putz mucked up 100 years ago. If HF and Henry meant for them to be angled, they'd have angled them right off, GRIND, GRIND, GRIND!! ". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cyis Report post Posted February 17, 2016 hahah, thanks you all for the sharing! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ConradPark Report post Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) It's not a bad sharpening job, it's a different style - very common among old European tools, especially in the clobber trade, however the style is getting common among Japanese and Korean high end leather tools too. When you do heat edging - draw a fancy line between the stitch and end of the edge, the longer side of the tool helps the tool to not slip over the edge as you push (or pull) the tool. The shorter side is the one that marks the line. As with everything else, its always down to preference, no such thing as right or wrong. What I have noticed though, is that the style is more suited for fine work ( 0.5mm - 2mm), any larger and there is no longer much benefit with having one side taller/longer. The stitch line is 3mm and the 'fancy' line is made with a 1.5mm French edger, like the one you showed in the picture. Edited February 18, 2016 by ConradPark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
simontuntelder Report post Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) Conrad, that's not a french edger, that's a creaser you're referring to. And creasers weren't really used by shoemakers - they mostly used glazing irons. A French edgers isn't very common in Europe. It's sometimes referred to as a skirt shave in the UK. It's used to skive, miter an edge and in numerous other applications. Edited February 18, 2016 by simontuntelder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ConradPark Report post Posted February 19, 2016 I stand corrected, as I mistook the picture for a 'creaser'. Simontuneelder - Glazing irons are used for melting wax into the leather sole and to smooth out the surface, especially around the heel area - different tool and use from creasers, but no worries, we all do mistakes . I do agree that creasers are hardly used by shoemakers today, just happens that in the way past in the olden days it was indeed different. I share a studio with a group of shoemakers that still make and continue the tradition of making shoes by hand and we are all lucky to have amassed a small collection of vintage creaser tools, all of them from makers of shoe making tools. Unfortunately most of the makers doesn't exist anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
