boxstitching - I need some advice...

[Martyn]

Hi guys, I'm hoping to probe the hive mind for some advice here.

This is a practice project, a little round trinket box. My first was a few days ago and a complete disaster, this one is a bit better, but still lots of issues.

 

It's a basic cylinder shape about 2.5 inches diameter by 2.5 inches high. It's stitched up one side with a herringbone 'baseball' stitch. It's 6/7 ox veg tan wrapped around a rawhide liner. The base is a circle of the same veg tan, box stitched onto the cylinder and this is where my problems start. A picture speaks a thousand words, so I'll just show you...

I cant get the hang of this at all.  My problems are...

1. cutting a perfect circle. I can cut a circle roughly and then sand it to a decent shape, but when I bevel it at 45 degrees for the box stitching, it goes out of round. I'm sure this is an issue with my bevelling, but any help....

2. bevelling a circle. I can bevel a 45 degree angle on a straight piece OK (see the strip I'm using for the lid), but putting a 45 degree bevel on a small circle is a nightmare. Do you have any tips? I've been using a basic skiving tool.

3. Making the holes for stitching. It looks OK from the outside, but as you can see, the stitching on the base is utter rubbish. The next job is to make and stitch the lid. This stitching is bad enough on the bottom, but on the lid it would be unacceptable. I'm going in the side with the awl, but am having a nightmare exiting the bottom in a perfect circle - made worse because each stab has to be angled in slightly because I'm stitching in the round. So the stitch spacing on the base is obviously different to the edge. But try as I might, I just can hit the mark and it looks rough as hell. I'm thinking of putting a circular groove on the lid piece in the hope it will hide my clumsiness a bit, but I think I'm still going to have issue just getting the stitches actually in the groove. Is there a way of improving it? This has taken 'back side neatness issues' to a whole new level of awkward for me.

 

Thanks for any and all suggestions,

Martyn.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Martyn

[ninety5percent]

Not sure I'll be much help, but in the book The Art of Hand Swing Leather, Al put a stitch groove on the bottom round and used that as a guide to stick the awl through.  It doesn't say of a trick to keep it strait but just make sure you line it up.  You could pre punch the holes on the bottom round and line it up and just sew it that way.  If you don't have that book you should defiantly get it.  There is a pdf version that can be purchased online on Tandy's leather craft library site.  Good luck.

[Martyn]

Thanks, yeah I was thinking a groove was perhaps the way to go. I'm going to have to get that book.

Punching the bottom round would be tricky, because the spacing is different to the holes on the wall. So I'd have to count how many holes I have round the edge, then manually set the spacing on the bottom round. It's a lot of work. I think I'll try it with a groove. So long as I can get the hole into the groove, the groove will straighten out the stitches as you say. It wont be perfect, but it should look neater.

 

Thanks.

[johnv474]

If you mark your stitch line in the bottom round piece (or put a groove), you can then mark off that stitch line with a dot for each hour mark of a clock face, then an extra dot halfway between. If you do this, then you will have a set stitch mark every 3 stitches or so. It's easier visually to approximate dividing that smaller space into 3 when stitching.

If I were doing it I would want to pierce the surface of the bottom piece after laying out my (slightly narrower) stitches on it. I mean pierce such as with a pushpin, just to break the surface. Since it's the densest part of the leather, you don't want to need much pressure to push your awl through.

You definitely want to read Stohlman's book (among others). It is a very handy reference that can help you figure out ways to do such challenging tasks.

By the way, the box stitch and round box stitch (like you are doing) are among the most difficult stitching to do in leatherwork, so bravo for taking it on.

[Martyn]

1 hour ago, johnv474 said:

If you mark your stitch line in the bottom round piece (or put a groove), you can then mark off that stitch line with a dot for each hour mark of a clock face, then an extra dot halfway between. If you do this, then you will have a set stitch mark every 3 stitches or so. It's easier visually to approximate dividing that smaller space into 3 when stitching.

That's great advice, I'm about to put the lid together and I'll try just that.

Difficult? Nobody told me or I might have thought twice. :D

Actually, this little trinket box is a pretty good learning project. They are small, dont use up much leather, reasonably quick to make and contain quite a few skill challenges (for me anyway).

Thanks,

Martyn.

[johnv474]

Here's a quick, dirty way to make one.

Mark a strip long enough for the outside (any length will do, as you'll see.  Mark along the edge an additional strip 1/2" wide, and 1/2" longer than the strip for the sides.

Form circle, baseball stitch, or however you want to stitch.

Glue smaller strip inside the outside walls along the bottom with the grain side facing the center of the cup. Sew in place. This forms a "shelf".

Trace outside of cup onto a piece of leather with your scratch awl. Cut it out, slightly inside your line (1/8" or so). This is your cup bottom.

Put glue along the top of the "shelf", glue bottom in place.

I use this to make small leather trays for D-rings, buckles, etc. The sides are about 2-3" tall in that case, and the base is the rectangular with well rounded corners (like glass burnisher, which I often use as my template--that, or lids to small plastic food storage containers). They use little leather, are good practice, and look way better on a shelf than plastic containers.

[OneCrow]

I can sympathize as my first round box stitch looked as good as yours. Breaking the surface of the bottom 'exit' leather is a huge help as johnv474 mentioned. Make sure your awl is freshly sharpened and waxed. Be patient and practice. If you have not already seen it, Nigel from Armitage Leather has a very good Box stitch video, some concepts can be utilized for a round box stitch.  https://youtu.be/_2ygboFnHW0

 

[Trox]

I have an old Blanchard tool for cutting washers (washer cutter), cutting round. It's been awhile since I made such boxes. You better find the center of the round bottom, nail it to your work table in such way that you can use the table end to guide the beveled cut (rub away the nail mark with water and bone folder when done). Just lay your knife in a 45 degree angle on the table end and rotate the round leather piece. You could cut it out like this too, and make the 45 deg. in same operation (cut an oversize piece first). Use a curved awl/needles when stitching box side. Remember the bottom stitches spacing is less in the bottom piece (more SPI), because of the smaller diameter. And of course use a wooden dowel, box etc as a lest. Good luck!

Tor   

[Trox]

And use a thinner thread perhaps.

[Martyn]

Thanks for all the tips guys, it's much appreciated, I will definitely be trying them.

 

To be honest, I think I've bitten off a little more than I can chew with this. I've found it really quite difficult. It seems to require a level of skill and a gentle touch that I dont have yet.

There are definite improvements with the box stitch. Piecing the top lightly before going in from the side with the awl, was a definite help. Also, making a stitch groove was a help too. However, I made a huge number of other errors. My skiving was way off. I made the angle far too shallow and it's caused the lid to dip and the sides to mushroom. Also, I put too much tension on the stitches which also made it mushroom - that was because my gluing came unstuck and the lid fell off as I was making the holes - so I had to anchor it with stitching, which created alignment issues ...and on and on... I also tried tooling the lid, which was a mistake as I've not done hardly any before - actually only the basket weave on this project and I made a dogs dinner of it. My theory was that if I made the lid busy with tooling, it might hid the bad stitching. :D

...anyway...

I'm not happy with it at all, but I am happy with the improvement, if that makes sense? I need to do some more of these. They are very challenging for me, but I am learning so much. I think I'm on the right strack with the stitching and just need practice - lots of it. Skiving needs my attention big time. I like the idea of using a pin to secure the round, but wonder if it'll leave a hole I cant hide? I guess I'll have to try it and see. I also need to learn a bit of restraint. I skive too much sometimes and need to learn when to stop. Less is more on this.

here's another pic of it in hand for scale - it actually doesnt look too bad if you hold it at the right angle and turn the bad bits away. I can see people getting a few of these as gifts. :D

 

Edited March 30, 2016 by Martyn

[fivewayswelshcobs]

The way I was taught to do round boxes was to put the round base inside the cylinder and double the base by using 2 layers . Then when you angle the stitches from the outside to the base you are stitching through the base in a stronger way as you are going through more leather.

[Martyn]

1 minute ago, fivewayswelshcobs said:

The way I was taught to do round boxes was to put the round base inside the cylinder and double the base by using 2 layers . Then when you angle the stitches from the outside to the base you are stitching through the base in a stronger way as you are going through more leather.

Yep, that makes an awful lot of sense having just had a whole bunch of problems I wouldn't have had, if I'd have done this..

Edited March 30, 2016 by Martyn