Advice for a nooby please guys

[sparky20006]

Hi everyone from the UK- love this site and have wasted many many hours flicking through it.

I have decided to invest in a sewing machine to make things like wallets, bags, dog leads and similar and am faced with a MASSIVE number of machines to choose from. Walking foot / flat bed, cylinder arm etc...it just goes on and on.

Considering what I want it for could I ask for your opinions on the following please? Bear in mind funds are not limitless and the two last ones I mention I can get well within budget. 

 

 

SINGER 110K124

 

SINGER 31K47

 

Highlead GC 3108

 

Singer 95K40 (Can get this one cheap)

 

Brother DB2-B755-3 (Can get a good condition one pretty cheap)

 

Many thanks in advance fellas

 

Paul

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by sparky20006

[Constabulary]

So what is your budget?

My 2 cents:

If I had to choose from then I´d take - non of them.

But the closest I think could be the Singer 110K124 but I still would not buy it. All other are more ore less garment sewing machines.

Before I start telling you why better read this thread:

And / or watch Arthur Porters Video:

 

[sparky20006]

I have got about £400 (580 USD) to spend. But could get a  Singer 95K40  or  Brother DB2-B755-3  for a lot less local to me.

The  Highlead GC 3108 is a heavy duty walking foot machine and from what I gather and researched  has quite a good reputation. Am I mistaken? There is one reasonably close to me for $580 in good condition. Would that not sew veg tanned leather for belts, bags, wallets and dog leads etc?

Sorry to sound stupid but I'm about 10 hours into researching these machines and it's getting confusing now.

 

Regards

 

Paul

 

 

[mikesc]

I agree with what Constabulary said..( read the threads he recommends and watch the videos )..
re the Highlead GC 3108 ..
Highlead's site
http://www.highlead.co.uk/products.html
( and search engines of your choice ; ) have no walking foot model by that number "Highlead GC 3108"
That said..Highlead ( anything by them ) are very solid machines..
I've seen walking foot machines, ( I was looking during 2015, and was prepared to buy from the UK , DE, SP, IT, PL, BE, NE etc , and to import to France ) by Singer , Pfaff, Adler etc on dealers sites and UK ebay etc for within your budget / price range..

[sparky20006]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Walking-Foot-Heavy-Duty-Sewing-Machine-/162087666245?hash=item25bd2d8245:g:LMoAAOSw7ehXTI~b

 

This is just up the road from me for collection only.

Would it be okay for bags, wallets, dog leads etc using double thickness of 1 through to 2.5 mm veg tanned leather?

That means it would have to be able to sew through up to 5mm. If it can handle it why wouldn't it be a good buy if it's a well known brand? If it can't handle that sort of work relatively comfortably then what is it being made and marketed for? Why would anybody buy one?

It's all very confusing.

Paul

[mikesc]

The machine on Ebay is actually a GC0318-1 ..( blurry picture, but that is what it is )
http://www.highlead.co.uk/highlead-GC0318.html
it is not a compound feed ( the needle does not feed ) but is a top and bottom feed ( I have an older Juki DLU 490-4 that is similar, top and bottom feed )
it will punch through the layers of leather that you need it to, but it is normally a garment machine that can do leather also ( but you won't have the control that you'd get with a compound feed machine )..That said if you are only feeding it 2 layers of leather ( like dog leads ) it would probably be OK ) wallets and bags, not so much..
it is more suited to upholstery ( sewing two pieces of leather together ) than complex multi layered stuff like bags and wallets..

But, if it runs and has nothing wrong with it the price seems good compared with the new price, you might be able to use it for a while and then "trade up" ( let it make you some money and then sell it for what you paid for it or maybe a little more, and then put the money to a compound feed machine )..

Why do they sell it ?..
Depends who you mean by "they"..
Highlead sell it for textile and upholstery leather work, where stopping the various layers from shifting around is not so crucial..

The guy on Ebay is selling it for "whatever" reason..

Personally at that price I'd buy it and try to "get by" with it, and keep your eye out for a true "compound feed machine"..
Which is what I did ..bought a Juki "top and bottom feed" ( which like the Highlead GC0318-1, can easily get through the thickness and feeds better than a bottom feed only machine ) and then watched the French equivalent of Craig's list ( "le bon coin" ) like, a hawk until I saw a good price on a compound feed machine ( Singer 211U166A )..and bought it too..
Now have another old one ( Singer 29K51 "patcher )..and a couple of heavy duty "domestic" manual machines ( Silver 4048D..you see them in a lot of tech' schools in the UK, good all round machine to learn on, easy to control and they have top and bottom feed , very useful for sewing lightweight leather like 1 to 2 oz lambskin and goatskin in up to 4 layers )..cost about as much as drop feed basic industrial with table and servo..equivalent to the Pfaff Select 4..or the Pfaff "Jeans" Machine..A friend in France recommended them to me as she used one , and a "compound feed Juki industrial" in her business making Medieval costumes and theatre costumes all year round..For a heavy domestic machine they are wonderfully versatile.

Currently looking for a cylinder machine for heavier work, and a zig zag machine ( Singer 20U maybe ) or something that does 4 point zig zag and can also do straight stitch..and an embroidery machine..

I don't run "production"..just make designs and prototypes..but industrial sewing machines are fascinating and sort of addictive, ;)

There is a video on youtube of the Highlead GC0318-1 here..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnWpCiQGe38
and if you copy and paste
"Highlead gc0318-1" into your favourite search engine..you'll find more about the machine..

One thing..the clutch motor will go like a "bat out of hell", you'll either want to change it for a servo motor( much more control and slower speed )..
You can get one in the UK from College sewing..( search this site for Constabulary and College sewing servo motor, he has bought a few of them from there ) ..or, you'll want to make or buy a speed reducer..easy to do if you are handy and can get pulleys and bearing, shafts etc..again search this site for "speed reducers" )..

HTH :)..Mike

On reflection..The Highlead GC0318-1, is probably a clone of a current , or recent Juki "something", so, someone else may have first hand knowledge of the "original"..

Further searching finds it here
http://www.sew-europe.co.uk/l1011_300.htm

Where the description says
"Top & Bottom Feed Walking Foot Lockstitch Machine which is best suited to medium weight work on PVC, LEATHER, CANVAS and other difficult to feed materials.
Identical to the MITSUBISHI LY2-3300-BOB, PROTEX TY3300, WIMSEW 3300 JSM PF5318 and CONSEW 205RB Machines. "

New price appears to be around £500.00 + VAT..so about £600.00 ( maybe you can claim back your VAT ? ) ..so the guy on Ebay is offering it at a 33% discount..is it still under guarantee ? will the guarantee transfer to you as the new owner ? ( ask Highlead , or whoever he bought it from, not him, he may not tell you the actual legal position about the guarantee as to if it is transferable or not, it has been nearly three decades since I was in the UK, I used to be a CAB Financial and consumer advice volunteer, but laws have no doubt changed since the 80's ) ..

PS..that seweurope page also has a downloadable ( .pdf ) file for parts and user instructions..for that machine..worth your time to read it ..

Edited May 31, 2016 by mikesc

[LumpenDoodle2]

Wot Mikesc says.

I think the Highlead GC3108 is the same as the Joy Pf5318 (correct me if I'm wrong).   I bought the Joy pretty cheap from an upholsterer, and although it has limitations when working with leather, it does the job for me (at least until I can afford/have the space for a better machine).

I also fitted a servo motor, and it changed the machine for me.   It also remove the embarassment of seeing a grown woman hanging onto the end of a piece of material, screaming "Mummy!  Mummy!" as the material she is clinging to dissapears through the machine at the speed of light.

As to what you can sew, I use mine over a range of materials and thicknesses, from thin pvc covers, to veg tan belts (3.5mm-4mm max, but do-able.

So, I know there are better machines out there, but out of your selection, I can vouch for the Highlead as well useable, but be careful with the price, as to me, £400 without a servo motor might be considered as on the higher side, price wise.

Edited June 1, 2016 by LumpenDoodle2

[sparky20006]

Thanks Mike and Lumpen. really useful advice there. 

I'm thinking about early retirement (approaching 56) and have played around with saddle stitching and making a few belts and wet formed bags so was toying with the idea of giving myself something to do when i pack work in to stop me turning into something from the veg rack.

I have no intention of selling anything tbh, just making stuff for fun really. Hence why I do not want to go mad on the price.

The reason I'm looking into a sewing machine is. I love the therapeutic element of hand saddle stitching a thick leather belt but the thought of messing around doing it on 1 to 1.5 mm thick veg leather stuck in a clam with a wallet and all its fiddly elements puts me off a bit. I would much rather design a pattern, cut it out, do the edges, run it through a sewing machine and then do a bit of trim on it such as press studs etc. I'm 6'4 and 19 stone so you can imagine the shovels I've got for hands! Homer don't do fiddly 

Your posts have made me wonder about two things now -

1. The servo motor thing. Does a servo motor make it so you can have it sew really slowly and get faster the more you press the control? Are these difficult / expensive to fit as this sounds a much better approach.

2. The top and bottom feed bit - I have no idea what that is on about. Is that the feed of the thread or the leather? Why is it important enough to comment on? 

Cheers again for the advice.folks much appreciated. I've got hundreds of pounds worth of tools upstairs and three dead cows in the spare room waiting to be cunningly fashioned into something.

Mike - LOVE Brittany. We usually drift down there every year in our motor home and drink gallons of cheap pampelmousse rose wine from Aldi.

Paul

 

[sparky20006]

Mike

 

Is this the one you bought? Is this a good price and is it a good machine? How can you tell if it is has a servo motor on it by looking at the pics?

Is it a general purpose machine that would do most things? (I know a machine can't do absolutely everything but you get my drift)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Singer-211-U166-Compound-Feed-Walking-Foot-Industrial-Sewing-Machine-/281929894243?hash=item41a454c963:g:PN4AAOSwUuFWt901

 

Paul

[mikesc]

Paul..couldn't tell the motor type from the photos, so..I phoned them just now :).."asking for details for a friend" :) ..
They are dealers, seem to know their stuff, helpful, friendly..
( BTW ..yes it is the same as my machine )

They told me..
Currently has brand new clutch motor ( they can fit it with a small pulley* which will slow it down to "warp factor 2"..which is "a bit slower than light speed captain"..lumpendoodle can probably do a better "Scotty" impression than I can )..ducks and runs..
Or they can fit it with a servo motor for an additional £175.00 ( I think you can get them from College Sewing for a bit less and fit it yourself..not hard at all, hardest part would be squeezing yourself under the table to take off the clutch motor and fit the servo one..You and I are the same size, I slimmed down a bit, just a bit over 100kgs nowadays, and I'm 5 years older, but if I can twist around under a "K" Frame table to do stuff, so can most )
*You could maybe build speed reducer? as I did, then it will crawl along, and gain in "punch" although they already have a lot of "ooopmh" and can sew medium to heavy leather with lots of control..( they are not strong enough for saddlery work though, they will max out at around 3/8 thick veg tan )..

The 211 models come with two types of bobbin / hook assembly, normal and big..it has the "normal"..as does mine..

He can supply a big bobbin and hook machine for £699.00..

Servo motors have loads of "slow speed" control and are silent when you do not have your foot down ( and use less power on your leccy meter )..but a clutch motor with a speed reducer can go very slowly aswel ..

re the price..I've seen them go for more than that in the UK..and have seen ones with bits missing and some "work needed" go for around that price..

In France they usually go for more than that..I was lucky ( and the seller was pressed for cash for a quick sale ) so I paid around half that price..
Cash is a great "discounter"..:)

"Feed" relates to how the leather is fed through the machine to be sewn..

Have read of the thread by Wiz to understand the different types of "feed"..

http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/25239-the-type-of-sewing-machine-you-need-to-sew-leather/

211U166 good all round machine..will do what you want a machine to do, later you'll want a cylinder model in order to be able to work close to the edge on bags etc..and then another machine to do.... and another to do .. :)

Knew there was a video out there of a clutch motor with a speed reducer..the speed reducer is off the more complex type ( CowboyBob sells this sort ) but you don't need the "cage model" to be able to swing the machine back , "search "speed reducers leatherworker.net" with the quotes left on..you'll find many variants..
here is video of how slow they can go..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhDkrURVPGw

Edited June 1, 2016 by mikesc

[sparky20006]

You called them up! Cheers bud! 

I think I'm going to need a servo motor to be honest Mike, having read what you say. By the time I add on the price of a servo I reckon it's going to start shoving this towards 700 quid and despite the wife's arthritic back i think she'll still manage to connect a boot to my crotch if I splashed that on a sewing machine.

Mike do me a favour mate have a sniff around ebay and elsewhere and see if you can see a 'bargain' for around the 400 quid mark. I live near Glossop and can pick up as I have a Berlingo. 

Is it OK if whenever I see anything I send you a link in here? You have probably forgotten more than I know and knowing my luck I'd buy a lemon.

 

Paul

 

[mikesc]

Of course I phoned them ..I'm no expert on sewing machines, but I have been around them off and on since art school over 40 years ago..

 ..I know the 211U166 ( and related models ) because I can reach behind me and touch my 211U166a machine from here, and since I got it , I've done everything to it barring a full "all rods and shafts and bearings out field strip" ..some here ( Eric, Wiz, Uwe and Constabulary and others ) are probably thinking "why hasn't he done that yet, lazy sod ?"

Btw ..Typed a longish reply originally, grazed the wrong key ( one of the keys on my French keyboards seems to work as ghost "hot key" to delete text ( in linux Mint 17.2 ) in dialogue boxen in FF whilst typing, lost all my reply, so, "browser ate it"..bugrum..so here goes again..

As I said, I'm no sewing machine expert ( I don't even play on on the TV in my own head )..although  there are many here, too numerous to mention all of them, perhaps they will join in , but I have been around sewing machines since my 1st art school back in the early 70s ( we had to learn how to make what we could design or draw, including how to use industrial sewing machines, industrial letterpress and litho printers etc, very good grounding, prevents people like Eric and Wiz having reasons to think disparaging thoughts about "designers and artist" who draw or design things that cannot be made.."know your material, know your tools".."head, hands and heart" etc..

Prevents one designing Chocolate teapots or bicycles for fish..

Anyway..since buying my 211U166a, I have been very thoroughly over it, tweaking, cleaning, oiling, it had only one lady owner from new ( but as Eric "gottaknow" said in another recent thread here, he does not allow machine operators to oil or tweak or generally "futz" with machines ..with good reason IMO ) the lady's boss had not allowed here to tweak etc, just sew..Then when she retired she bought the machine from her boss, ( he was closing down ) and she only knew to oil where the red marks are, luckily she did almost no sewing with it, maybe only 500 metres of polyester in 15 years ( I got a lot, 20 or so, of huge spools of polyester and nylon and poly cotton mix thrown, all in good condition, plus all the spare hooks and things that she did not know what they were for :)..I now know my 211U166a very well ( there are other "relatives" to it which are very similar )..I can reach out and touch it from where I'm typing this ..for the 3rd time..

Thus I know what to ask about that machine in particular, and what it can do, and some of the "gotchas"  ( like the somewhat vague stitch length indicator system that one gets used to, but which I might "mod" on mine to make it easier to get exactly the stitch length I want each time I change it , one of Uwe's videos gave me an idea how it might be accomplished with the aid of a diamond tipped Dremel or a tiny set of hardened jewellers punches )..not an important "gotcha" on a 211, but to a "tinkerer" and "embellisher"..a "project"

Ask me about another machine which I don't own or haven't touched in along time, I'd hesitate to answer, but I know what these can do..

The only thing that you mentioned that you might encounter difficulties with would be sewing deep moulded pouches ( a cylinder machine would be better for them) but, they can be done with a flat bed compound feed..for the rest of what you propose sewing, a 211u166 would work great..other opinions / posters ?

re needing a servo motor straight away on that machine ( and thus bumping up the cost ) ..did you see the video I posted the URL to about speed reducers and clutch motors ?

here it is "embedded"

I'd be amazed if you need to go any slower than this ?

When I was researching parts to make my speed reducer, I found that the pulleys and the bearings were cheaper and easier to come by in the UK than in France..

All the parts to make one should cost you no more than £40.00..

Fitting is really easy..exactly how they attach depends on the type of frame of your machine's supplied table..my table is on a "Z" frame, so I made a vertical sliding adjuster from steel stock and bolted it directly to the "Z" frame somewhat forward and in line with the pulley of the clutch motor ( thus my clutch motor doesn't "stick out the back of the table" ) ..my pulleys are 40mm on the drive shaft of the clutch motor, belt drive to the large 200mm pulley on the speed reducer, and the small pulley, 45mm on the speed reducer drives the original 75mm pulley on the 211 head..thus giving me a speed reduction of around 5:1 ..the original motor max speed is 1750 rpm, so my current max speed at the machine is 350 rpm, but with "feathering the clutch" and an extended to the left side of the pedal activating arm, and a "bungee cord" additional tensioner, and a block of dense foam under the pedal..I can easily run it at well under 60 stitches per minute..or as fast as I want up to 350..

Constabulary ( one of the actual experts here, and fellow sewing machine addict, with a penchant for rescuing cast iron ) had a contact for a guy that made him some "all in one" custom speed reducers for around €40.00 about a year ago, postage was around €10.00 to anywhere in Europe, maybe he can still get them for the same sort of price and maybe he would be willing to source one for you and send it ?

If I were you, I'd convince your wife that you may as well get the right machine set up at the beginning..I can't see that you'll find a true compound feed walking foot on ebay or elsewhere for that kind of price, and as they are a dealer ( ebay says" they are a "business registration" ) you get all the usual legal UK and EU consumer rights and protections via the consumer legislation, whereas buying if buying on ebay or elsewhere from a private individual you have no redress if it stops working after 5 minutes..apart from the individuals ebay "rep"..and many private sellers don't care about their "rep", they can just re register in another name if it turns out that they are selling lemon after lemon..

Spotting a lemon in a private sale ( private individual seller ) from another country via the internet is not really feasible, you'd still be the one touching it and taking delivery, anyone here can advise a bit,( and the help and expertise here is amazing ) but we can't be in your eyes, ears, fingers etc, at the moment of payment you'd be on your own..

Me..I'd smile at your spouse and promise to do the dishes for a year and day, and then go for the machine that can do what you want from the man with the Punjabi accent..his accent took me back to when I lived in the UK ( lot of my mates had that accent )..in France I never hear it unless I'm phoning to Pakistan or India ( Punjab region of either )..and the phone lines are not very good or clear to that region of the world..

my 2cts

Edited June 2, 2016 by mikesc

[Darren Brosowski]

95k40 is about as useful as a domestic sewing machine so do not waste your money.

31k47 is great for work up to about 4mm. If you can get it for 100 quid then it is a good starter machine.

Save your pennies for a machine that will do the heavy work

 

[GPaudler]

Hi Sparky, you're getting lots of good advice here, but besides a machine's ability to push a needle through some thickness, you might consider the size thread that you'd like to use and the stitch length. Those can be important elements of the appearance of the kinds of projects you have in mind and there are plenty of machines that will handle 5mm thickness but only with size 92, or thinner, thread and 8, or more, stitches per inch. That will be plenty strong but might not provide the appearance that you'd like.

[Darren Brosowski]

Almost every machine that uses a standard shuttle type maxes out at M20 (#138).

Anything heavier needs an open frame shuttle

 

[sparky20006]

Thanks for the advice guys really appreciate it. I have much to chew over!