Truth or Fiction: Oil and Spirit Dye Ban, US

[swivelsphinx]

Hey All:

A few days ago, a customer comes into my shop and tells me that his carving teacher told him that spirit and oil dyes have already been banned in California, and that Oil and Spirit dyes are going to be banned in 2009 nationwide. This sounded incredibly unfeasible, as NONE of the suppliers I use have said boo about any such thing, and there is bubkus on the subject when I do Google searches.

I recently called Fiebings and The Leather Factory. I was told there was *no* plan to discontinue these lines in the works, and no Federal legislation going into effect that they knew of in the near future. Sheesh!

Edited December 30, 2008 by swivelsphinx

[Art]

Well, it has been banned, but only for small amounts in retail sales in CA. They are probably worried about disposal of those products by non-professionals; like dumping it down the drain or onto the ground. You should still be able to get 16oz and larger sizes, even at retail in CA. I can understand some retailers and even wholesalers who might not want to be bothered with it at all. I've tried the Eco based products and did not find them to my liking, but it wasn't as if I HAD to start using them, so I didn't.

Art

Hey All:

A few days ago, a customer comes into my shop and tells me that his carving teacher told him that spirit and oil dyes have already been banned in California, and that Oil and Spirit dyes are going to be banned in 2009 nationwide. This sounded incredibly unfeasible, as NONE of the suppliers I use have said boo about any such thing, and there is bubkus on the subject when I do Google searches.

I recently called Fiebings and The Leather Factory. I was told there was *no* plan to discontinue these lines in the works, and no Federal legislation going into effect that they knew of in the near future. Sheesh!

[TwinOaks]

The manager of TLF in Montgomery, Al said that the Tandy had a good stock (~2 years) but that it was being phased out in favor of the treehugger version.

Whether other sources like Springfield, Hidecrafter, Spiegel, etc. will be doing the same wasn't discussed.

[abn]

There was lots of discussion on this topic back in mid-2007 when the ban took effect and Tandy responded with the Eco-Flo line of water-based dyes. Since then, not much has changed. Outside of California, you can still purchase the full line of Fiebings spirit dyes in any size bottle, even at Tandy. Fiebings has even come out with a line of low VOC spirit dyes, called LeatherColors, intended for CA customers.

I think the Eco-Flo line has been a big success for Tandy, but I expect there will always be a place to buy spirit and oil dyes, since they are still preferred by a great number of craftsmen. If you like them, stick with 'em.

-Alex

[TexasJack]

The dyes aren't being banned because of disposal; they are being banned because of air quality regulations. Volatile organic compounds (VOCs), which includes most organic solvents, contribute to ozone formation. States that have problems meeting the federal National Ambient Air Quality Standards can put severe restrictions on products containing those chemicals.

If they banned all VOCs, shut down all industry, and moved everyone out of California, they would still not meet the standards for ozone. (A combination of natural vegetation and the way the terrain interacts with air currents makes the problem.) So the concept that a 3 oz. bottle of dye might destroy ecosystem is just insane.

Don't be surprised to see such bans in other states. Environmental regulations are probably 75% based on politics and not science or engineering. The people proposed to run EPA for the incoming administration are nothing short of fanatics.

Meanwhile, retailers like Tandy are trying to come up with alternatives so they don't get driven out of business.

Anyone care to comment on how well the 'green' stuff compares to the traditional stuff???

Edited January 1, 2009 by TexasJack

[bustedlifter]

If they banned all VOCs, shut down all industry, and moved everyone out of California, they would still not meet the standards for ozone. (A combination of natural vegetation and the way the terrain interacts with air currents makes the problem.) So the concept that a 3 oz. bottle of dye might destroy ecosystem is just insane.

To think that we can change what God created ( climate) is the height of arrogance .

[MADMAX22]

The dyes aren't being banned because of disposal; they are being banned because of air quality regulations. Volatile organic compounds (VOCs), which includes most organic solvents, contribute to ozone formation. States that have problems meeting the federal National Ambient Air Quality Standards can put severe restrictions on products containing those chemicals.

If they banned all VOCs, shut down all industry, and moved everyone out of California, they would still not meet the standards for ozone. (A combination of natural vegetation and the way the terrain interacts with air currents makes the problem.) So the concept that a 3 oz. bottle of dye might destroy ecosystem is just insane.

Don't be surprised to see such bans in other states. Environmental regulations are probably 75% based on politics and not science or engineering. The people proposed to run EPA for the incoming administration are nothing short of fanatics.

Meanwhile, retailers like Tandy are trying to come up with alternatives so they don't get driven out of business.

Anyone care to comment on how well the 'green' stuff compares to the traditional stuff???

So true.

[UKRay]

To think that we can change what God created ( climate) is the height of arrogance .

Sadly, Bustedlifter, to think that we haven't changed what God created might just be the height of gentle innocence... the greenhouse syndrome is far too well documented to ignore fellah... and believe me, I'm definitely not a tree hugger or any other kind of 'green' nut.

Before you jump on my back, I'm not about to be drawn into debate about this stuff as I'm already out of my depth but let it suffice to say I work closely with highly educated people who have been researching this stuff for years and they all believe in it wholeheartedly... On a personal level I have absolutely no reason to doubt that mankind is responsible for some mammoth nasties which will affect our offspring for generations. Just look around you... a plague of locusts doesn't even come close to some of the stuff that is going on around the world.

Like most of us, I use spirit dyes because I believe they are the best option. I have always used them and, until recently, didn't see any reason to change. Now I'm looking very closely at how I can use these water based products because I firmly believe that in a few years they could be all we are able to obtain.

Governments around the world are tightening up on the whole greenhouse gas issue. Carbon offset is simply going to be another legitimate business expense before long. 2012 is a-coming and there is nothing we can do about it other than make sure we have researched alternative ways of keeping our businesses going - including sourcing carbon friendly dyes and making sure our businesses are as carbon friendly as possible and let's face it, a huge farting cow probably isn't the most carbon friendly source of materials.

I've said my 2 cents worth and will gladly step back now. Absolutely no offense is intended anywhere or to anyone, but we will all have to deal with this issue sooner or later.

[Ian]

Well, I missed my calling. I should have been a scientist or filmaker then I could get my place in line for the billions of dollars that have been appropriated for 'Global Warming' - that's what it's really all about. At last count, over 3,000 world scientists have agreed that this hysteria is the biggest hoax ever to be foisted on the public. The planet will be covered by a foot of ice and the 'green' industry won't let go of the golden goose they've discovered. In the meantime, every industry that requires the use of solvents will have been driven to China, and the mediocre products we produce with 'green' substitues will be unsalable.

I can guarantee you that the container-ship loads of merchandise from Asia that dock on our shores every day aren't manufactured by 'green' methods. So we'll plug along with our inferior 'Eco Flo', feel superior that we're being 'green' and then head out to the mall to buy Asian goods.

[tonyc1]

There is no global warming down here this summer. It is the coldest December that I can remember. Instead of being the usual 30c on New Years day, it was 16c. We have had the fire going all of Dec. and they even forecast snow on the mountain. I feel for the people who have come here for a holiday this year!

Tony.

[TexasJack]

... the greenhouse syndrome is far too well documented to ignore fellah...

"Greenhouse syndrome" is an excellent term! Yes, it's well documented.

"Greenhouse warming" is not.

Carbon taxes and allowances are strictly political. The USA uses much more coal than Europe, so it will be more heavily taxed and that will drive up the price of it's goods. That gives Europe a financial edge. China, which is probably the most polluted country on earth, gets a free pass because everyone enjoys the cheap priced goods they produce.

Furthermore, VOC emissions have NOTHING to do with carbon dioxide. It contributes to ozone formation when mixed with nitrogen dioxide and sunlight.

Greenhouse syndrome falls into a broader category called "Pop-science" or "Pop-sci" That's where a small amount of information is extrapolated into something that can be termed a "crisis" and get media attention. Toss in carbon taxes and allowances and suddenly it takes on political power.

This is not really a proper forum for such debate, but let me say that my stand on this issue is NOT political. I've been an air quality scientist for 30+ years. I've watched these pop-sci 'crises' wax and wane. Anybody remember the 'nuclear winter' where we were all going to freeze to death because of air pollution? Carl Sagan made a fortune promoting that. Al Gore is making a fortune promoting global warming. Oh, yeah, and NASA got a tremendous budget boost to study the hole in the ozone layer - and we banned most Freon products so we wouldn't be irradiated to death. The hole still comes and goes (regardless of Freon usage), no one has any idea why it does that, and we're all still mostly alive.

I don't mean to stir things up with anyone over this. It just galls me to no end that real science and real solutions to problems get no funding while half-baked pop-sci ideas are used to re-write laws and treaties that affect all of our lives.

[Windy]

Sadly, Bustedlifter, to think that we haven't changed what God created might just be the height of gentle innocence... the greenhouse syndrome is far too well documented to ignore fellah... and believe me, I'm definitely not a tree hugger or any other kind of 'green' nut.

Before you jump on my back, I'm not about to be drawn into debate about this stuff as I'm already out of my depth but let it suffice to say I work closely with highly educated people who have been researching this stuff for years and they all believe in it wholeheartedly... On a personal level I have absolutely no reason to doubt that mankind is responsible for some mammoth nasties which will affect our offspring for generations. Just look around you... a plague of locusts doesn't even come close to some of the stuff that is going on around the world.

Like most of us, I use spirit dyes because I believe they are the best option. I have always used them and, until recently, didn't see any reason to change. Now I'm looking very closely at how I can use these water based products because I firmly believe that in a few years they could be all we are able to obtain.

Governments around the world are tightening up on the whole greenhouse gas issue. Carbon offset is simply going to be another legitimate business expense before long. 2012 is a-coming and there is nothing we can do about it other than make sure we have researched alternative ways of keeping our businesses going - including sourcing carbon friendly dyes and making sure our businesses are as carbon friendly as possible and let's face it, a huge farting cow probably isn't the most carbon friendly source of materials.

I've said my 2 cents worth and will gladly step back now. Absolutely no offense is intended anywhere or to anyone, but we will all have to deal with this issue sooner or later.

I was watching Bill Nye the science guy the other day. He made a statement

I found very interesting, he stated that cows are responsible for 20 % of the

greenhouse gases. More than all the cars and trucks in the world combined.

If you want to read more about it Google cow gas 20 % of greenhouse gases.

I guess instead of giving up my truck I will eat more chicken.I just had a vision

of all the cowboys out west riding around herding up all them chickens and

branding them.Snicker snicker snicker.

WINDY

Edited January 2, 2009 by Windy

[whinewine]

To think that we can change what God created ( climate) is the height of arrogance .

What everyone forgets is that we are still coming out of an ice age. When George Washington crossed the Delaware in the 1700s, it was truly harrowing. There were many ice floes that hampered the crossing; in reenactments today, there is rarely any ice to speak of on the Delaware River. The warming/cooling today is part of a natural cycle that, at some future point, will result in a (1) global warming and (2) another ice age. I remember in the '50s as a kid, people screaming that the weather change was due "to the ATOM BOMB". Today it's due "to cow flatulance...or car exhaust...or tandy spirit dyes...or barge cement...or maybe too many humans farting too much in concert with the cows mooing & farting"...

[abn]

Anyone care to comment on how well the 'green' stuff compares to the traditional stuff???

So we'll plug along with our inferior 'Eco Flo'

I personally prefer Eco-Flo, and not because of environmental reasons. I used spirit dyes for several years with frustrating results, with colors often turning out too dark or streaky. I also had to buff the heck out of each project before the final finish to avoid having the dye bleed through. And the strong fumes gave me headaches in my small workspace.

Maybe Eco-Flo dyes aren't for everyone, but I certainly prefer their vibrant colors, easy application, and lack of smell. After mastering a bit of a learning curve, they produce reliable results and when properly finished, are fairly water resistant.

Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone who's happy with spirit or oil dyes to switch, but I certainly do take issue with anyone who infers that Eco-Flo dyes are inferior. They're simply a different choice for folks who for whatever reason weren't happy with spirit dyes.

-Alex

[Timd]

A funny aside here, Whinewine, I live about 6 miles from Washington's Crossing, and they reenact the crossing every Christmas day. This year the current was too strong, and they used the bridge to cross.

[swivelsphinx]

Anyone care to comment on how well the 'green' stuff compares to the traditional stuff???

I'll be blunt. The water based "dyes" are *greatly* inferior. They act like cheap, acrylic water colors- they don't soak into the leather properly, and they *run like mad* when exposed to significant moisture. I'd worry about their vulnerability to sweat and weather even with the "water based finishes". Fine for the kiddies, and classroom situations where hazards have to be kept to a minimum, but not for me!

[swivelsphinx]

Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone who's happy with spirit or oil dyes to switch, but I certainly do take issue with anyone who infers that Eco-Flo dyes are inferior. They're simply a different choice for folks who for whatever reason weren't happy with spirit dyes.

-Alex

If you like them, that's cool. However, I can give you reasons *why* I don't like them. Application of spirit and oil dyes takes *loads* of practice- it took me a long time to let it "sink in" that they do not behave like paints. The water based dyes behave much more like conventional "modern" paints. I make goods that *have* to stand up to fairly rough treatment- the water based dyes don't stand up to moisture and heat as well. I think it is *good* that Tandy has a water-based line, even though I don't care for it for the work that I do. Some people are not able to work with the oil/spirit products, or have strong convictions towards using "green products" whenever possible. What I took issue with is the fact that there are people who are supposed to be *professionals* telling customers things that are simply not true about the law as it relates to leatherwork.

[twinklestarchild]

There are numerous scientists on both sides of this issue, there is extensive evidence to support that many synthetic compounds emitted into the environment are harmful, but there is also a lot of geological evidence that the planet heats up and cools down in cycles and that what is being detected as a global temperature increase is just part of this normal pattern. Global warming is really just one aspect of the greater issue being "addressed" by these laws. The problem with these kinds of laws is that they take away the ability to work with these compounds from hobbyists and small businesses, but do nothing to address the use of these kinds of compounds in far larger amounts by large corporations. The vast majority of individuals are going to be responsible, i.e. not dump them down the drain, in the yard, feed them to the dog, etc... Large corporations tend to not have much in the way of scruples, dump their leftovers everywhere, and primarily have regard for their bottom line. I grew up in Baltimore, MD and remember there being the most beautiful sunsets over the city (purples, oranges, pinks, greens?). This was caused by the chemicals released into the atmosphere by the local factories, cars, and port. From the mountains of West Virginia the city appeared as a brown bump on the horizon. That's from 4 hours drive away and was not caused by an over-abundance of amateur leatherworkers. Drano is a volatile substance specifically sold to be poured down the drain, and to my knowledge is far more noxious than the alcohol base of a spirit dye. Personally, I am going to take the middle path, experiment with the eco-flow dyes if they are going to be what's available, but hedge my bets by experimenting with home made dyes made from natural AND synthetic compounds. The fiebing's and eco-flow dyes are more expensive than RIT and methylated spirits (thanks again cem!) or coffee and berry dying. There's my copper.

[Washroad]

Hey All:

A few days ago, a customer comes into my shop and tells me that his carving teacher told him that spirit and oil dyes have already been banned in California, and that Oil and Spirit dyes are going to be banned in 2009 nationwide. This sounded incredibly unfeasible, as NONE of the suppliers I use have said boo about any such thing, and there is bubkus on the subject when I do Google searches.

I recently called Fiebings and The Leather Factory. I was told there was *no* plan to discontinue these lines in the works, and no Federal legislation going into effect that they knew of in the near future. Sheesh!

I'll try not to get into the global warming debate other than to say that Al Gore is both a fraud and a liar ....but hey, I'm just one of those "little people" and need a Big Brother to tell me what is best for me....yeah right.

Yes, in California, home of the phony greens(they're sorta like a Caddilac liberal, ya know?), the spirit based dyes are banned. Can't buy them. So, what do I do? I order them from ST Leather in St. Louis and have them shipped to my friends in Arizona. My friends then relabel the box and send it on to me.

So, if you're out here on the left coast, make some friends in Arizona!

[Ian]

Just read that the Arctic ice is the thickest it's been since 1979, thanks to our new global freezing. Polar bear numbers have increased 500% since the 70's. Where's Al Gore's team of scientists now?