Veg-tan cracked on me, help?

[twinklestarchild]

I was working on a belt, tooled it, dyed it with fiebing's spirit, antiqued it with eco-flow, sealed it with Neat-Lac, and then let dry. I was in the process of bending the end loop for riveting the buckle on, and the grain side of the leather just cracked. There's several hours of work (fairly complex tooling design) down the drain. Now, here's my question, and I'm guessing I could figure this out with enough experimentation but ya'll are awesome: What can I do to prevent this amount of brittleness? I have a bottle of prime neatsfoot oil, for conditioning, but can I use that before dyeing? before tooling? Cased or un-cased? Post dye, pre-finish? I've been scouring my books, but they don't really indicate what's up with this process. Also, should I condition the flesh-side? I've also noticed that my projects have a tendency to curl. I figure that this is because of the causticity of the Neat-Lac, but I've heard that is the product to use if you really want something that has a good seal against water, and most of the projects I am making are intended as everyday wear and I want them to hold up. I also really dig the high-gloss finish. I think that when I have a little bit more cash I'm going to invest in some super-sheen as well and try that, but for now all I have is the Neat-Lac. Help?

[abn]

TSC,

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with the dyeing and finishing process you used, but a light application of neatsfoot oil would definitely help condition the leather. I'd do it after dyeing and before the final finish. And I wouldn't worry about conditioning the flesh side.

However, it's entirely possible that you got a damaged piece of leather (one that was sunburned or old), and in that case, it can sometimes crack even if conditioned... To save yourself some heartache next time, you may want to cut off two or three inches of the strap before doing all your work and bending it to see if any cracking occurs. I'd be especially careful if you're using a precut strap, like the ones Tandy sells.

-Alex

[bruce johnson]

Firm good leather can crack at a fold line. It may have more to do with how firm the leather is. The firmer under leather doesn't compress and the grain side stretches to make the fold and cracks the grain side. Some people blame it on dry or bad leather when it can sure be good leather. Casing with warm water first and then making the fold helps prevent it. The old rule of using backs lengthwise for belts with the billet end at the butt had merit. The firmer area was at the hole end and the holes wouldn't maybe stretch as much. The buckle end was up further in a looser fibered area and fold easier. Turn that strap around and you can get cracks with folding dry leather. I usually make and set the folds on anything right after I have finished carving and the whole piece still is carrying some case. After it dries I dye letters or background and then oil. The finish is the last thing I put on, after stitching and everything else. I put the finish on with the belt folded and closed.

[twinklestarchild]

TSC,

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with the dyeing and finishing process you used, but a light application of neatsfoot oil would definitely help condition the leather. I'd do it after dyeing and before the final finish. And I wouldn't worry about conditioning the flesh side.

However, it's entirely possible that you got a damaged piece of leather (one that was sunburned or old), and in that case, it can sometimes crack even if conditioned... To save yourself some heartache next time, you may want to cut off two or three inches of the strap before doing all your work and bending it to see if any cracking occurs. I'd be especially careful if you're using a precut strap, like the ones Tandy sells.

-Alex

To be honest, almost all of the leather I work with is old, and I was afraid that might have something to do with it. Generally I bend the piece to check for stress factors pre-casing. I think that the neatsfoot oil might solve the problem, I was mostly concerned with when to apply it, and whether or not it might mess with the Neat-Lac. It seemed that after dyeing seemed the logical time, and I am glad to have that confirmed.

[twinklestarchild]

I usually make and set the folds on anything right after I have finished carving and the whole piece still is carrying some case. After it dries I dye letters or background and then oil. The finish is the last thing I put on, after stitching and everything else. I put the finish on with the belt folded and closed.

So, your suggesting making the fold (but not the rivets or other hardware) while it's cased, and then dying... that makes alot of sense.

[hidepounder]

I think the cracking you experienced is a twofold problem. The leather is too thick and too dry at the fold. When I make belts, I skive the leather down so that it is not so thick at the fold. The leather should not be full thickness here. When the leather is thinner, there is less stretching of the grain side when you make the fold. Before I make the fold, I dip the end to be folded in water and get it saturated. This allows the grain side to be stretched without breaking open. I personally don't think Neatsfoot or anything else is going to have a large impact on preventing the grain from cracking. If your leather is really old this may not solve your problem, however, I'm betting that it will. I do recommend oiling after you are finished dyeing and after you have completed the fold, so that the leather is properly conditioned. Hope this helps.

Bob

[twinklestarchild]

Bob

I skived the end where the fold was going, still learning how far down to cut, but I think I got it pretty right on this one. I was concerned about casing for the fold because I didn't want to make the color inconsistent, but it's good to hear that will not be an issue. The leather I am working with is kind of old, and has had some exposure to changing temperatures, so I think that may be the source of the problem.

Thanks alot for the suggestions! I've learned more on this forum than in a dozen books.

[Shorts]

I only bend my straps/belts/loops when the leather is wet (especially on my holsters where loops are essential). This prevents the leather from cracking and allows for a nice conformed behavior when the strap dries. After the bend is dry again you can move it around without much worry. From there I go to dyeing and can manipulate the area as I need.

YMMV but I've had good results this way folding 7/8oz and 8/9oz leather

[celticleather]

The old rule of using backs lengthwise for belts with the billet end at the butt had merit. The firmer area was at the hole end and the holes wouldn't maybe stretch as much. The buckle end was up further in a looser fibered area and fold easier.

I was interested to read Bruce's comment about using the heaviest end of the leather for the holes in a belt or strap, with the buckle at the lighter or thinner end.

The ancient saddler who taught me would always cut a thin strip from the edge of a new bridle butt. He then laid the two ends side-by-side on the bench, and by rubbing his finger across them, would establish which end of the strip was thickest. This was thereafter called the 'best end', and all straps and belts would be cut to ensure that the adjustment holes fell at the 'best end' of the strap.

It's a method I still use, and although I usually thin down the buckle turn, I'm still convinced that it gives the strongest possible straps and belts.

[hidepounder]

Bob

I skived the end where the fold was going, still learning how far down to cut, but I think I got it pretty right on this one. I was concerned about casing for the fold because I didn't want to make the color inconsistent, but it's good to hear that will not be an issue. The leather I am working with is kind of old, and has had some exposure to changing temperatures, so I think that may be the source of the problem.

Thanks alot for the suggestions! I've learned more on this forum than in a dozen books.

Your concern about creating a stain mark is legitimate, especially on older leather. One of the things you can do to help alleviate that, is to take a sponge and wet the leather farther down the belt , essentially "tapering" the moisture off to nothing, thereby eliminating a stain line. Usually this is not necessary, however.

Bob

[twinklestarchild]

Your concern about creating a stain mark is legitimate, especially on older leather. One of the things you can do to help alleviate that, is to take a sponge and wet the leather farther down the belt , essentially "tapering" the moisture off to nothing, thereby eliminating a stain line. Usually this is not necessary, however.

Bob

Great advice, thanks for the tip. Seems like common sense, I'm just still learning what qualifies as "common" sense when it comes to leather.

[JoeNots]

I wish i read all this an hour ago! oh well. the crack isn't too bad & i made the belt for myself. learn something new everyday.

i was told by a friend that i should use Lexol Leather Conditioner. Anyone ever use that with good or bad results in the case of cracking?

Thanks,

Joe

[BillB]

Just thought I would add some thoughts from my experiences.

1. Leather, after all, is the skin from some animal that has been removed and gone through a preservative process called tanning;

2. It is no longer receiving the natural oils that would keep it supple;

3. Dyes, Stains, finishes can remove what ever oils, e.g. alcohol base, are present regardless of age and make the leather brittle;

4. Aging will also cause the leather to become brittle as the liquid component of the oil evaporates;

5. Some dyes, stains and finishes may added oils back into the leather, e.g. oil based;

6. Water will provide a temporary substitute but will evaporate as well and return the leather to its previous state;

7. Prior to working with any leather, new or old, it needs to be prepared, e.g. casing if being tooled, saturation wetting if being folded or bent into a form that is be be retained, deglazed to remove oils prior to dyeing or staining; oiled to increase flexibility if being used like a strap or belt, etc.

8. Sometimes normal use will keep the leather "oiled", e.g. our hands produce oils.

I just finished a holster using 50 year old leather. I spent as much time preparing the leather as I did tooling and working the leather, but the natural color that the leather had due to its aging was worth it.

BillB.