Fiebing's Black dye rubbing off

[CaptQuirk]

No, it isn't just bleeding or transferring to other things. When I buff out some pieces, you can see the raw veg tan. This is after multiple coats, and even more coats when I see the leather showing through. I have tried cleaning with oxalic acid, rubbing alcohol, and even saddle soap. The only thing i haven't done, is dip dye. What else can I try?

[TinkerTailor]

I would look at your leather supplier. Fiebings is usually pretty consistent and does not fail in this way oftern. Either there is something on the leather or in it that is preventing dye takeup. Silicone is particularly bad, if the leather has ever got silicone thread lube or other products,  on it it will not take up dye as well. Gum trag will do the same thing. I have heard stories of leather from tandy that upon thouough cleaning it was discovered that the face of the veg tan had been filled and pasted to correct flaws. These areas didn't take dye the same.

[CaptQuirk]

Well, I can rule out gum trag and silicone... so that just leaves Tandy leathers. Any guess on how to overcome this? I mean, aside from not ordering leather from Tandy.

[NVLeatherWorx]

It has been said many, many times within these forums that the leather from Tandy is known to create such issues as this and it is all associated with where their hides are tanned and the formula that is used.  Most of the leather suppliers that thrive on those "can't pass up the price" listings obtain these "bargains" from pretty much the same sources and several have come to find that they aren't bargains at all when you start having the issues of dye rub-off/non-penetration, cracking at folds, splitting along stitching/lacing lines, and of course the ever popular "it has a kind of moldy odor to it" comment; this is what you end up running the risk of getting when the leather is tanned South of the border using a formula that IS NOT Oak based but based on a more predominant tree in the region and the liquid elements include a range of animal urine that allegedly balance the pH of the water and tanning formula (which down there is a fine powder just like a bag of cement here).  It is nice to be able to get leather at some of the prices that you find with Tandy and some other "value providers" but you still have to remember the saying, "you get what you pay for" and when aren't paying what we all know to be a more realistic price for the type of leather that is considered to be the Cadillac of Leathers (true, Oak tanned) what more can you expect?  Tandy quit providing quality leather decades ago when they, and everyone else, started looking for more affordable price points for their customers and they put that final nail in their coffin with their leather quality when just a couple years ago they finally discontinued the sale of the leather that made them the great source that they once were - their Live Oak brand, once considered in the same circles as HO and W&C.  

I know that cost is a huge factor in everything we make because I have just blown through a total of 7 sides of leather, various weights of course, in the past 5 weeks to fill my seasonal orders and I only use HO and pit-tanned veg-tan imported from England and France (these have a softer hand for those items that need the supple feel).  I use these leathers for their quality of product, extremely high yield (I have less than 2lbs. total weight of scrap from these 7 hides), their consistency in tanning processes and results, their carving and stamping characteristics, their ability to accept all dyes and finishes without issues or failure, and their overall durability.  I spend this extra money because I put my name on everything I make and if I were to use anything less my name would mean that I am just as bad as every other "poser" out there who calls themselves a Craftsman and Artisan while making everything from a pre-fabricated kit and doing nothing to it aside from slapping some eco-junk finish to it and assembling it with the included thread or lace.  I have learned this trade over decades, continued to search out new techniques and products, and spent the bulk of my life building my brand, so I am not going to risk everything that I have put into this fine trade and dying skill by saving $4 or more per square foot on leather that I know to have flaws that are definitely going to show themselves when I start working with it.  I use Tandy leather pieces to create my prototypes, the one's that will never find themselves in any image on my sites or on any craft table at a show or event; just simple prototypes to make sure that my design idea is actually going to work; that way, when I am ready to make the real deal I have worked out all of the bugs using real leather but without using up any of my $10 plus per square foot perfect looking skins.

[OLDNSLOW]

I think I read it here in another post, that the biggest culprit of rub off is the USMC black, that it has way more pigment in it than the other blacks.  I know I have had the same problem, I was able to resolve some of it by using a powered horse hair buffing brush, but once I am done with the current bottle of dye i wont rebuy any USMC dye, it will be the oil based dye to work with.  I have a holster drying now that I used the USMC on but I dip dyed it to see if there is going to be as much rub off or less and what the outcome will be when I have buffed and sealed totally.    

[CaptQuirk]

@OLDNSLOW- I have ended up with a bottle or two of the USMC, and seriously didn't notice much of an issue with it. In this case, it was the plain old alcohol based Fiebings dye. I have used the medium and dark brown dyes, and the saddle tan, on this very same piece of hide, and no issue what-so-ever. But this one holster is black. I applied 2-3 coats, then hit it with neetsfoot. I noticed a few spots where I could see the leather. So I buff it out, and hit it with a few more HEAVY coats, rinse and repeat. I then hit it with oxalic acid and even rubbing alcohol, and one or two spots still want to reject the dye.

Now, in some posts, I seem to remember that others apply a coat of brown first, then go with black? Is this accurate, or am I remembering wrong?

[CaptQuirk]

P.S. I just placed an order with Tandy for more dye, since I burned through all of the black that I had They don't have the black in alcohol based, so I ended up with the oil based. Never used it, so what kind of result can I expect?

[OLDNSLOW]

with the oil base I don't believe that there will be the problem experienced with the USMC, I have done brown bases as well prior to a black usmc coat and still had problems so not sure what the answer is other than to try oil or alcohol.  And as a thought I would think that a blue base would work better but have not looked for a blue dye.  keep in mind that with the oil dye if you want you can still cut that with denatured alcohol to make it stretch.

[CaptQuirk]

@OLDNSLOW- This issue was not with the USMC, it was the alcohol based black dye.

[OLDNSLOW]

sorry had to reread your post, can you tell if that section of leather has any variation to the surrounding area?  Think back did you do something that might work as a blocker?  I did a belt the other day and changed up my procedure a little and when I noticed where the problem area was I had to think what might have caused it.  I was doing a black belt and I punched all the holes prior to dyeing and noticed that the holes were  not taking the dye, and what it was is that I had used wax on my punches that was going to create a blocker once I cleaned it with denatured alcohol I had no problem.  Check if you can with another section of the leather to see how it reacts and think about your process that's about all I can recommend.

[CaptQuirk]

The only wax was on the thread, and I don't use silicon on anything. The only oil would have been from my fingers. So, nothing comes to mind. I usually treat my leather carefully, just to make sure it doesn't get scratched or stained by anything. I have it rolled up in the paper that it was wrapped with, and even put a plastic bag over the ends when I store it between use. I wipe it down pretty well with oxalic acid, or barkeeper's friend in this case, before dying. The only other thing that might be a culprit, would be the rubber cement between the two layers of leather. But I am careful to keep it only on the flesh side, and not globbed on to where it might suck through. I have been doing things this way for a while, and never had the dye rub off like this.

[TinkerTailor]

1 hour ago, OLDNSLOW said:

with the oil base I don't believe that there will be the problem experienced with the USMC, I have done brown bases as well prior to a black usmc coat and still had problems so not sure what the answer is other than to try oil or alcohol.  And as a thought I would think that a blue base would work better but have not looked for a blue dye.  keep in mind that with the oil dye if you want you can still cut that with denatured alcohol to make it stretch.

There is absolutely no oil in oil dye. The MSDS sheets don't lie. If you want to see, look them up. Oils must to be listed in the ingredients on the MSDS because they affect the flammability of the product....Both the regular and the pro oil dyes are spirit based and can be thinned with alcohol.

The problem here is not the dye, it is the leather not accepting it evenly.

Come to think of it, i wonder if the additional alcohol in a 50/50 cut of the dye would aid in dye penetration? May be work a try. Dip dying will also help with penetration, but may lead to over application problems on the areas that are not a problem by the time you dip it long enough to soak into the unruly areas...

[OLDNSLOW]

That's why I thought that he could try another section and how it takes the dye, I learn and experience something different with each cut of leather and how each responds to dye, clear coats or burnishing edges. you might find yourself having to trash a build even though it hurts like heck when things don't go the way you thought it should.

[CaptQuirk]

I only have a few square feet of this leather left, so if I have any need to do black again, I'll try a 50/50 with rubbing alcohol? I'm also going to try the Pro Oil dye, and see how that works. So far, I have done 2 or 3 holsters with this side, and only the black one had issues. The brown ones came out fine, no issues at all. Incidentally, the SOB holster I posted earlier, is the one in question, and it was only a few spots, one in particular was dime sized, and very stubborn. The SBH holster I also posted earlier today, is from the same side, and from right next to where I cut the black holster.

[Jimmy McLaughlin]

I just had the same problem with Angelus black dye. Try giving your leather a light coat of  oil and let dry overnight. The leather excepted the dye better, but I still had to buff off a lot of pigment. Their black dye is really black.Hope this will work for you.

Jim