Chrome-tanned vs veg-tanned for shoe lining

[Mike83]

I've commissioned some custom riding and outdoor boots to be made, but am having trouble deciding what leather to use for the lining?

The options I've found are a 2.5-3 oz or 3.5-4 oz chrome-tanned goat, a 2.5-3 oz veg-tanned goat or a 3 oz veg-tanned, dry kangaroo.

As far as I understand, the veg tan may be more breathable, but be susceptible to damage from moisture and salts from sweat. Conversely, the chrome tan may be less susceptible to moisture damage, but may trap moisture and lead to soggy feet.

Is this generally true or not? Which would you use, and why? I'm looking for something hard-wearing and long-lasting but also comfortable, which can be used several days in a row without being left for a day to dry out.

The upper will be a 6-7oz bison, if that makes a difference, with leather insole and outsole attached to a Vibram sole contacting the ground.

[electrathon]

Total thickness of 10oz  (plus more for the toe and heal) will be massive thick for boots.  The insole will be veg tan, the bison outer will likely be chrome tan.  I doubt there will be any significant issue with veg or chrome for the lining. 

[Mike83]

Thanks.

Have you noticed any difference in breathability or moisture buildup between chrome and veg tan linings? Or veg tan linings being damaged by moisture?

I've got the option of getting the bison in a 4-5oz grade too, for a final 7-8oz thickness. Would 10oz in total be too thick to consider? I've seen a lot of boots with 6oz-8oz uppers, but am not sure if that's the upper alone, or the upper plus the lining.

[bootsmt]

Mike I would not use veg tan lining, I use chrome tan. If the person wearing the shoes is allergic to chrome tan then you could use the veg tan or synthetic lining. Chrome tan will wear longer. I prefer 3 to 4 ounce.

bootsmt 

[Mike83]

4 hours ago, bootsmt said:

Mike I would not use veg tan lining, I use chrome tan. If the person wearing the shoes is allergic to chrome tan then you could use the veg tan or synthetic lining. Chrome tan will wear longer. I prefer 3 to 4 ounce.

bootsmt 

Great to know. Do you use chrome tan linings in your own work? How do they do in terms of breathability? I know a lot of cordwainers swear by veg tan for linings, on the basis that it's more breathable and traps less moisture around the foot (not just for allergies) but was not sure if that had any basis in truth, or just tradition.

I was thinking of something like this for the lining: https://hidehouse.com/products/index.html?Category=MG&Product_ID=1187https://hidehouse.com/products/index.html?Category=MG&Product_ID=1187. Not sure if any finishing on the leather would interfere with breathability, though, and whether I should be looking for an unfinished, full-aniline leather. Not that most leather merchants actually state whether the leather is finished or not.

Would 6-7oz for the upper and 3-4oz for the lining be too thick and heavy? Or should I cut down to a 4-5oz upper, or 2.5-3oz lining? I need something durable and able to stand up to abuse, but don't want to be wearing concrete shoes either - more like heavy outdoor boots. Not making it myself - a professional bootmaker is - but I'm sourcing the leathers and some of the custom components.

[electrathon]

As to breath-ability, there is going to be contact cement between the two layers, that should be a pretty effective seal in itself.  I think you would be better off with the thinner combination. 

I also think you are heading down a bad road.  It should be up to the maker to select and source the materials.  When the boots don't turn out he will be saying you got the wrong materials, and the blame game will begin.

[Mike83]

Fair enough - makes sense. Although I'm guessing the absorbency of the lining leather makes a difference, in terms of wicking it away from the foot and into the leather versus having it bead up on the surface and making it wet to touch.

I've used this guy before, which is why I trust him to do a good job with outdoor boots (unlike most others, who onlu seem to make dress shoes/boots). He gave me a shopping list of ideal materials for soles, insoles etc., but left the upper and lining up to me as an aesthetic choice

[electrathon]

It I was looking for the absolute premium, I would get Kangaroo.  It is very strong and pretty thin.  Goat is a close second.  I think chrome will handle the lasting easier.  As long as it is thin, I suspect either will work though. 

[Mike83]

Being in Australia, getting kangaroo isn't a problem. It's in the 2-3 oz range, since kangaroo skin doesn't get much thicker than that.

All the chrome-tanned roo seems to be finished/coated leather, though - I haven't found a source for aniline-dyed (or undyed), unfinished, chrome-tanned roo. Or goat, for that matter.  Lots of veg-tan, but no chrome-tan. Is there any issue using finished leather for boot lining? I tend to get sweaty feet, hence my interest in this.

[bootsmt]

There is no glue between the outer leather and the lining leather. I just read more of your post and saw that a boot maker is making the boots. Why are you not letting him or her tell you how the boots are put together and recommend what leathers to use? I would not be happy having a customer come to me and tell me they will decide what  leather I am suppose to use since they have no idea how to build a pair of boots. If he gave you choices and recommendations then I think it might be appropriate for some research. Do you trust this person to do a correct job? If you do then let him or her do their job.

The tops should never be made with thicker leather than the bottoms. The boot maker should have the sources for the correct leather and thickness.

 Frank

Edited April 7, 2017 by bootsmt

[howie696]

On 4/6/2017 at 1:16 PM, Mike83 said:

Being in Australia, getting kangaroo isn't a problem. It's in the 2-3 oz range, since kangaroo skin doesn't get much thicker than that.

All the chrome-tanned roo seems to be finished/coated leather, though - I haven't found a source for aniline-dyed (or undyed), unfinished, chrome-tanned roo. Or goat, for that matter.  Lots of veg-tan, but no chrome-tan. Is there any issue using finished leather for boot lining? I tend to get sweaty feet, hence my interest in this.

I think "Birdsall" have chrome tanned roo in differant colours

 

[Mike83]

8 hours ago, bootsmt said:

There is no glue between the outer leather and the lining leather. I just read more of your post and saw that a boot maker is making the boots. Why are you not letting him or her tell you how the boots are put together and recommend what leathers to use? I would not be happy having a customer come to me and tell me they will decide what  leather I am suppose to use since they have no idea how to build a pair of boots. If he gave you choices and recommendations then I think it might be appropriate for some research. Do you trust this person to do a correct job? If you do then let him or her do their job.

The tops should never be made with thicker leather than the bottoms. The boot maker should have the sources for the correct leather and thickness.

 Frank

He gave me a shopping list of ideal components (normally keeps cheaper stuff himself, since most of his customers don't particularly care what the insole is made of, for instance). So I got all of them. But he left the upper and lining up to me, saying he could make them out of almost anything. Looking at the hippo-hide boots sitting in his shop, I tend to believe him...

[RockyAussie]

On 06/04/2017 at 3:16 PM, Mike83 said:

Being in Australia, getting kangaroo isn't a problem. It's in the 2-3 oz range, since kangaroo skin doesn't get much thicker than that.

All the chrome-tanned roo seems to be finished/coated leather, though - I haven't found a source for aniline-dyed (or undyed), unfinished, chrome-tanned roo. Or goat, for that matter.  Lots of veg-tan, but no chrome-tan. Is there any issue using finished leather for boot lining? I tend to get sweaty feet, hence my interest in this.

Its been awhile since I've made any boots but if your maker is in OZ he will know of a company called J.A.Brooks. http://www.jabrooks.com.au/

As they supply most anything for making and repairing shoes I would recommend the unsealed leather that is commonly used in surgical shoe making. If your feet do sweat a lot as mine have at times I have found putting 2 eyelet holes in the instep arch area works very well.(Not the sole but in the side of the shoe). As you walk air gets sucked in and out and keeps your feet dry unless you walk through water though. Regards Brian

[bootsmt]

Use unfinished lining leather,it should be soft and feel fluffier( for lack of a better term )  than the outer leather. Top leather should never be heavier than the vamps. 3 to 4 oz chrome tanned lining , I use what is called cream cow made to use for vamp lining, works well and absorbs moisture. Just make sure you use a good veg tan insole leather. The heavier the outside leather the warmer the boots.  

As far as no glue between the lining and the the outer leather I was referring to the vamps. Good luck. 

Frank

[Mike83]

20 minutes ago, bootsmt said:

Use unfinished lining leather,it should be soft and feel fluffier( for lack of a better term )  than the outer leather. Top leather should never be heavier than the vamps. 3 to 4 oz chrome tanned lining , I use what is called cream cow made to use for vamp lining, works well and absorbs moisture. Just make sure you use a good veg tan insole leather. The heavier the outside leather the warmer the boots.  

As far as no glue between the lining and the the outer leather I was referring to the vamps. Good luck. 

Frank

Thanks. 

I got some sole bends (11-12 iron) and insole shoulder (9-10 iron) from Baker, which was one of the two suggested sources.

Found some 4oz, unfinished, chrome-tanned goat - I suppose that should be good lining.

I'm looking at some 6-7oz shrunken grain bison for the upper, or perhaps a Horween zug leather of a similar weight. Looking for a pebbled appearance, but durability is pretty key here (how would latigo hold up?). Similar style to motorcycle 'engineer '-type boots.

[bootsmt]

It is up to you. Consult with your boot maker

[Mike83]

This particular boot maker is in Hong Kong (the other two I use regularly are in New Zealand and Argentina). He does excellent work craftsmanship-wise - welted, triple-stitched, etc. - and can make any design you can draw, but is happy to use pretty much anything in terms of materials (up to and including making a shoe upper from recycled tyres and seatbelts). Whether it's 2oz roo or 10 oz bridle leather, he says he can use it. So not much help from him in that regard.

I know the leather for most heavy work boots or hiking boots is in the 6-7 oz range (2.4-2.8mm), but is that including or excluding the lining (which would add another 3-4oz/1.2-1.6mm)?

I'm also looking at using Perlinger's shrunken calf, for the grain (http://www.fineleatherworking.com/shrunken-calf). Any idea if it would be hard-wearing enough for boots, or is it a fashion-only leather?