Recreating the sheath for an historic knife

[malabar]

A customer down in Palm Beach brought me this old Ruana knifeworks skinner over the weekend. He commissioned me to make a new copy of the sheath. 

The interesting thing is it used to belong to Roy Rogers. He bought it at auction from the estate. 

So here's the reason I'm posting:   The sheath is stitched and reinforced with what appears to be nails, not rivets.  Pictures are posted below from the top and bottom. You can see the heads of the "nails"  -- but I can't figure out what actually holds them in. Any thoughts? 

Edited April 18, 2017 by malabar

[cradom]

You sure those aren't brass rivets? Look at the green. Either way they were probably peened to keep them in. Second to last pic is a little blurry at the bottom, looks like it may have been broken or cut. Are they all like that?

 

[leathersmyth]

If, They are nails....  You can get nails that are made for trunk making. You kinda get use to how to set them, But you use a metal behind the leather and when the tip of the nail hits the metal it turns like a J. That is what causes it to "hook" into the leather and hold. When you are driving nail in,you do a sort of brush hit with the hammer, This then goes through the  leather and hits the metal which causes the nail  to bend like a J. Hard to describe....  I have set Thousands of them and get to know how it "feels" to set... If you set wrong they will bend like a L which is not what you want. You need it to go like J so holds leather like a rivet......

 And yes, the trunk nails will turn the leather that colour with time and moisture.....

[malabar]

1 hour ago, cradom said:

You sure those aren't brass rivets? Look at the green. Either way they were probably peened to keep them in. Second to last pic is a little blurry at the bottom, looks like it may have been broken or cut. Are they all like that?

 

Definitely not rivets, at least, not any kind I'm familiar with.  Yes, there are five of them, and none have any sort of peening or cap.  Agreed, they are brass or copper. 

[malabar]

25 minutes ago, leathersmyth said:

If, They are nails....  You can get nails that are made for trunk making. You kinda get use to how to set them, But you use a metal behind the leather and when the tip of the nail hits the metal it turns like a J. That is what causes it to "hook" into the leather and hold. When you are driving nail in,you do a sort of brush hit with the hammer, This then goes through the  leather and hits the metal which causes the nail  to bend like a J. Hard to describe....  I have set Thousands of them and get to know how it "feels" to set... If you set wrong they will bend like a L which is not what you want. You need it to go like J so holds leather like a rivet......

 And yes, the trunk nails will turn the leather that colour with time and moisture.....

Where could I get trunk-making nails?  Any tips on using them? The photos below show closeups of the bottom side.  The one at the tip might show a bent-over tip.

[Ken Kent]

The shot of the rivet at the tip looks like what's left of a tube rivet.What I think, leathersmyth is talking about are clinch tacks.They are cut to turn back on themselves into the leather and they make the J.The surface area in the photo is to large for clinch tacks.Can't really tell just a guess. Took another look  at the one at the tip sure looks like a tube rivet.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Ken Kent
another look

[malabar]

1 hour ago, Ken Kent said:

The shot of the rivet at the tip looks like what's left of a tube rivet.What I think, leathersmyth is talking about are clinch tacks.They are cut to turn back on themselves into the leather and they make the J.The surface area in the photo is to large for clinch tacks.Can't really tell just a guess. Took another look  at the one at the tip sure looks like a tube rivet.

The diameter is too small and it's solid, not tubular.  The diameter at the back is less than 1/16"

[Tommyboy]

Look up clinching nails and clinching irons. They are not used much anymore, but that looks like what was used.

[electrathon]

From what I am seeing in the picture they look just look copper rivets.  The only real difference in a rivet and a nail is a nail is usually longer and has a point on it.  You put the rivet in the hole and round/flair over the end with a hammer or a rivet set.  The green growth indicates copper, nails would not be copper, rivets often are.  I do see in one picture a hole in the center of the rivet, this would indicate a tube rivet.  Possibly all of them have the hole, they might just be full of crud.  If they are tube rivets they likely have  a cap on the backside that has fell off over the years.

[malabar]

1 hour ago, electrathon said:

From what I am seeing in the picture they look just look copper rivets.  The only real difference in a rivet and a nail is a nail is usually longer and has a point on it.  You put the rivet in the hole and round/flair over the end with a hammer or a rivet set.  The green growth indicates copper, nails would not be copper, rivets often are.  I do see in one picture a hole in the center of the rivet, this would indicate a tube rivet.  Possibly all of them have the hole, they might just be full of crud.  If they are tube rivets they likely have  a cap on the backside that has fell off over the years.

They're solid. I've probed the ends with a steel pick.  As you say, it could be a copper rivet, but if so, it was not set with a burr.  And the body is really long and thin. One pulled loose, allowing the layers of leather to separate. 

I'm leaning toward nails, mostly because the shape fits. I've learned there are both copper and brass nails (tacks) for leather working, although I've never used them before.   

Thanks for the input!

1 hour ago, Tommyboy said:

Look up clinching nails and clinching irons. They are not used much anymore, but that looks like what was used.

I've about come to the conclusion that they're clinching nails, although they might not have been clinched.

 

Thanks for the input.

[Tommyboy]

http://www.faeringdesigninc.com/instruct2.html

Here's an example of how to use clinch nails. This example is used for wood, but it's very similar for leather. Fair warning, it's a pain.

[electrathon]

You don't need a burr to set rivets.  They make it so that you do not have to flair out the peening as far, but not needed if you set them proper.  I think the tacks you are seeing are likely plated steel and not solid copper/bronze.  Steel will have a short lifespan around leather.

 

Clinch nails are used a lot in the custom shoe industry.  I have never seen one that was not steel (but that does not imply that are not made).  They are not pretty on the back side but work well in places like the inside of a shoe that you cant get inside of easily.  They are driven into the steel plate on the stand as the shoe is being assembled.

[malabar]

1 hour ago, electrathon said:

You don't need a burr to set rivets.  They make it so that you do not have to flair out the peening as far, but not needed if you set them proper.  I think the tacks you are seeing are likely plated steel and not solid copper/bronze.  Steel will have a short lifespan around leather.

 

Clinch nails are used a lot in the custom shoe industry.  I have never seen one that was not steel (but that does not imply that are not made).  They are not pretty on the back side but work well in places like the inside of a shoe that you cant get inside of easily.  They are driven into the steel plate on the stand as the shoe is being assembled.

Thanks for the education. Don't know a whole lot about leatherworking outside of holsters, belts and knife sheaths. 

[Ken Kent]

I use clinch tacks on a regular basis building saddles & harness repair.I use them to hold 2 pcs of leather together that doesn't need to be glued before stitching.In the harness making industry contact cement doesn't stick to harness leather because the leather has waxes & oil infused into it at the tannery so clinch tacks hold the pieces together sometimes they are driven all the way in making the clinch & become part of the fastening system .Temporary clinch tacks I will sometimes put in the stitch groove & pull them out as i sew up to them the thread covers the hole.There are tube rivets that are made solid except a portion at the end which is hollow that will roll over & capture the material at the bottom eg tin bound stirrups.I'm thinking this might be in your case these rivets are made from steel,brass,copper,aluminum so on & so forth.I don't know a supplier but I do know Weaver uses them on their tin bound stirrups as I've used them on lower end saddles.Hope this helps you out not examining the sheath its only a guessing game.How I use the clinch tacks is I put a piece of steel under the work & that will turn back the end forming the clinch.

Cheers, Ken

[malabar]

On 4/18/2017 at 10:44 PM, Ken Kent said:

I use clinch tacks on a regular basis building saddles & harness repair.I use them to hold 2 pcs of leather together that doesn't need to be glued before stitching.In the harness making industry contact cement doesn't stick to harness leather because the leather has waxes & oil infused into it at the tannery so clinch tacks hold the pieces together sometimes they are driven all the way in making the clinch & become part of the fastening system .Temporary clinch tacks I will sometimes put in the stitch groove & pull them out as i sew up to them the thread covers the hole.There are tube rivets that are made solid except a portion at the end which is hollow that will roll over & capture the material at the bottom eg tin bound stirrups.I'm thinking this might be in your case these rivets are made from steel,brass,copper,aluminum so on & so forth.I don't know a supplier but I do know Weaver uses them on their tin bound stirrups as I've used them on lower end saddles.Hope this helps you out not examining the sheath its only a guessing game.How I use the clinch tacks is I put a piece of steel under the work & that will turn back the end forming the clinch.

Cheers, Ken

Ken,

That's good information. Thanks for the insight.

[Chef niloc]

Cut tacks ( may be the same a a clinch nail?) is what those are, see them on a lot of old sheaths. Not the best thing to use IMO but if your trying to " copy" that look that's what you need brettunsvillage sells them

http://www.brettunsvillage.com/trunks/howto/parts/nails/