MendellLeatherOK Report post Posted May 8, 2017 Hello all! I am needing to upgrade my sewing machine. I currently have a Singer 185K hand crank. This little machine has been a power house for me, but I am starting to sew a bit heavier material as well as layers. I make mainly belts, wallets, portfolios, bible covers, ect. I usually use 8/9oz leather. My layers usually are anywhere from 1/2in to 3/4in. My budget isnt huge, maybe $850 max. I have heard good things about Juki and Adler. Im not opposed to off brand machines as long as they can be worked on and will actually do what I need them to. Anyone have insight on different machines? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted May 8, 2017 If you really need to sew 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch stacks of leather, you will need either a 441 class, 205 class, or Campbell Randall machine. The 441 refers to the Juki TSC-441. It is the machine which gave birth to the Cowboy, Cobra, Techsew and multitudes of other clones that represent about 75% of the professional leather sewing machines in use today. The 441 first hit the market around 1989 and was setup to sew cloth, webbing, buffing wheels and things of that nature. The 441 is built in Japan, is still made, and sells for about $5900.00 new, or about $2500 to $3,000 used. Clones, like the Ferdinand Bull, Cowboy CB4500, Cobra Class 4 and Techsew 5100 sell new for under $3,000, which is half the price of the original machines they are based upon. The 205 class refers to the venerable Adler 205-370 leather stitcher. This machine was available before the Juki 441 and was the choice of many top notch leather holster makers and harness shops. It was favored by the Mennonites and Amish because of its German origins and dependability. There are some clones available from Cowboy and other builders. New, they sold for up to $6,500. Used Adler 205s can be had for about $3,000. New 205 clones sell for well over $3,000. The Adler 205 was discontinued about two years ago when they released their model 969 ECO, which Weaver sells for just over $10,000. The Randal machines were specifically made to sew harness and have been around since the late 1800s. They are sill in production in Texas and sell for a base price of around the mid 6k figure. Used Randalls can go for the high 3ks through the mid 4ks. All of these machines can sew 3/4 inch of real leather with very heavy thread (#415). The Campbell Randall can sew through plywood and even a copper penny! Methinks you are going to need to triple your budget to buy a suitable harness stitcher that can sew between 1/2 and 3/4 inch of veg-tan or bridle leather. However, if you can double your budget, you can buy a new Cowboy CB3200, or Techsew 3850, both of which sew up to 1/2 inch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MendellLeatherOK Report post Posted May 9, 2017 You are just a plethora of information! This is exactly the type of info I was looking for! I do think I am going to wait until I can at least double my budget and just trudge along with my little machine for the time being. When I purchase a big machine I just want to do it once instead of keep buying and selling and upgrading! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted May 9, 2017 26 minutes ago, MendellLeatherOK said: You are just a plethora of information! This is exactly the type of info I was looking for! I do think I am going to wait until I can at least double my budget and just trudge along with my little machine for the time being. When I purchase a big machine I just want to do it once instead of keep buying and selling and upgrading! A friend I used to work for and I both faced the same decision in 2010 and 2012. He made the leap first and bought a Cobra Class 4, which I sewed on. He uses his Cobra daily to sew rifle slings and guitar straps for his Internet business Two years later I partnered up and opened my open shop and bought a Cowboy CB4500, which is my main money maker. We use it constantly to sew holsters, pouches, cases, gun belts, double leather belts, guitar straps, etc. I even use it to hem jeans! If you do any saddle work, or holster work, go for a big machine like these, with a 16.5" cylinder arm. Don't dink around with equipment not built for tough jobs. It takes too long for your hair to grow back after you pull it out in frustration! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MendellLeatherOK Report post Posted May 9, 2017 24 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said: A friend I used to work for and I both faced the same decision in 2010 and 2012. He made the leap first and bought a Cobra Class 4, which I sewed on. He uses his Cobra daily to sew rifle slings and guitar straps for his Internet business Two years later I partnered up and opened my open shop and bought a Cowboy CB4500, which is my main money maker. We use it constantly to sew holsters, pouches, cases, gun belts, double leather belts, guitar straps, etc. I even use it to hem jeans! If you do any saddle work, or holster work, go for a big machine like these, with a 16.5" cylinder arm. Don't dink around with equipment not built for tough jobs. It takes too long for your hair to grow back after you pull it out in frustration! Thank you! I wont be doing anything heavy like saddles. What is your opinion on the Techsew 0302 or the Techsew 3650HD? Im beginning to think the above machines may be just too big for what I need but Im also waffling with the face that it will probably be better to have it and not need it than not have it and do need it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MendellLeatherOK Report post Posted May 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, MendellLeatherOK said: Thank you! I wont be doing anything heavy like saddles. What is your opinion on the Techsew 0302 or the Techsew 3650HD? Im beginning to think the above machines may be just too big for what I need but Im also waffling with the face that it will probably be better to have it and not need it than not have it and do need it! I guess Im looking between the CB3200, CB2500, Techsew 3850 and they Techsew 3650HD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted May 10, 2017 6 hours ago, MendellLeatherOK said: I guess Im looking between the CB3200, CB2500, Techsew 3850 and they Techsew 3650HD. I see that you are looking at price over specs and mechanisms. Here's the skinny about these four machines. The CB2500 and TS3650 are similar and are only single feed machines, via huge feed dog teeth. There will be tooth marks on the bottom that will have to be ignored, lived with, or rubbed out. They are rated at 7/16" thickness, with #346 thread. They are both based on the Singer 45k machines of yesteryear. Sewing higher, or with bigger thread requires so much foot pressure that it will be hard to move the leather, or hold it down as the stitches are formed and locked. Being a static foot, climbing over new layers will require the use of the foot lifting pedal or hand lever. But, installing the optional big roller foot will let it roll up and down over layers much better than the flat foot. The CB3200 and TS3850 are based on the Juki TSC-441, meaning they have triple feed and smooth feed dogs. The alternating feet easily walk over and down from layers and can be adjusted for more or less lift. They sew 1/2 inch out of the box, without additional tweaking. They can sew with #415 thread and still hold down the leather. There are other mechanical differences, along with totally different shuttles and needle systems, but I've explained the most important differences. If tooth marks on the bottom aren't important to you and you won't exceed 7/16" and #346 thread, the bottom feeders will save you several hundred dollars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
