Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 8, 2009 I have gotten another swivel knife. I bought a Barry King swivel with the 1/4" blade. I absolutely love the knife, but the blade... well not so much. It does a great job, don't get me wrong, but even after super stropping (removed all grind marks and applied a mirror finish using various grits from 9 micron to .5 micron diamond spray, it's not gonna strop/sharpen any better than it is now) I still have some drag in tight corners and it will cause the leather to bunch a bit. I re-evaluated my technique even. I do not have this problem with a ceramic blade I worked over. So I guess I am curious, is there another blade that will fit the Barry King knife or a Tandy AS swivel knife that is not ceramic that is even better for detail work or tight turns? The Barry King blade won't fit my Tandy AS knife (second favorite one) I thought maybe the Henley 1/4" angle thin blade? Any suggestions? Allen PS I also got a Barry King Tapered Maul. It's DA BOMB. So much better than the poly head hammer style Tandy job. Makes the beveling so much more pleasurable! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gtwister09 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Allen, I have a couple of Henley's and love them. I also have a couple of Peter Main's Henley blades also and love them as well. Peter's blades are much better for lighter leather. For very fine work I have Bob Beards' smallest angled blade and absolutely love it as well. I have a few different ceramic blades but don't use them much. I have not tried one of Paul's blades but I understand that he has an adapter that allows it to fit your knife. I have heard really good reports on his knife and blades. Hope that helps... Regards, Ben Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tina Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Hi, If you're into small things I do recomend Pauls knife. I make loads of small intricate patterns and I have the smalles blade in an angle from Leather Wrangler (Paul) This is by far the best I have tried. I have had my knife now for 6 months and so far I have only stroped it, that's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hidepounder Report post Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) Allen, I'm curious, are any of your other steel blades doing the same thing? Also, are you using a jig to sharpen with? Bob I just read in another post that you're using a graver jig, so sharpening isn't the issue...not sure what's happening there. Might call Barry and ask him about it. I have heard that you can use Pauls blades (Leather Wrangler) in Barry's knives, but I don't know that for sure. I use Beard blades, that I had him make for me and Henley blades. I'm sure Barry will make you another one, and I know Paul and Bob Beard will. Please let us know what you find out...I'm curious about this. Sounds like something different than the normal drag which develops when using steel. Bob Edited January 8, 2009 by hidepounder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Hidepounder, Yes, I use a jewelers engraving tool jig to set my angles and then each abrasive change the angle remains the same. It is 1000% more accurate than the Tandy tool jig. The Tandy cheap-o steel blades do the same as I think the angle is a bit shallower than the ceramic. Allen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloz Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Allen, The real issue with all blades is the alloy. In our situation we are exposing our blades to a wet environment that has chemicals in it as well. Some leather producers neutralize these chemicals better than others which results in a smoother cutting leather, but there are always some left over. When the blade is exposed to this wet environment it reacts with the water and chemicals and etches, growing microscopic oxide crystals that look like pimples on the surface. This is what causes the drag you feel. The solution to the problem is all in the alloy. I will be presenting, in very graphic ESM detail, this very issue at Wickenberg in March. When you strop the blade after this happens you take off the pimple, polish the surface, wax the metal a little and it will cut smooth again....for a while then the chemical processes starts all over again. I hope this helps a little. Pabloz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Pabloz, If what you say is true, the composition of the blade's steel can have a component that will retard the formation of these crystals and therefore reduce or eliminate the drag? If so, are your blades made with this alloy? I use aluminum oxide abrasives (3 micron) to remove the grind marks before the blades were used. Polished to a mirror finish using a .5 micron diamond powder mixed into a spray. I sit with a strop on my lap as I carve... Even if I strop after just a few minutes of carving the drag is there. Allen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pabloz Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Allen, You are absolutely correct. Carbon and nitrogen are two of those elements that are inert to this environment. The most reactive is iron-iron oxide= rust, aluminum-the alox or aluminum oxide you are using, Chromium (but is also some what reatively reactive, chrome oxide is used to polish gem stones) is typically added to slow this process, which if it constitutes >12% of the steel alloy makes it a "stainless steel", vanadium, tungsten, etc., etc., etc. Yes, our alloy is very resistant to this process. I would love to discusss this in more detail but I type rrreeeaaalllyyy slowly so please call me or PM me your number and I'll call you then you can post what you feel is of significance. Pabloz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveh Report post Posted January 9, 2009 Barry king blades are quality tool steel, if you strop as needed they cut great. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 9, 2009 Last night I played around again with the steel blades. I think my technique is more suited for the ceramic as it has a slightly more pointed angle than the Barry King blade. I also looked at the other steel blades that I have bought from Tandy. I played around on some scrap and if I use the filigree blade. I like it better than the regular 1/4" angle steel blade. I do know that the cheaper Tandy blades need more stropping. The Barry King blade is very nice as well. It cuts well but I still bunch the leather in tight curves more so than with the ceramic. Allen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hidepounder Report post Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) Allen, Initially I thought you were talking about something other than the normal drag which occurs when cutting with a steel blade, but it sounds like that is what you are experiencing. I have never used ceramic so I am accustomed to stopping to strop. You may already know this but maybe someone else here doesn't. One of the things you can do to help eliminate the drag when cutting, is to add soap when you case your leather. I had heard of this for years but didn't try it, now it is part of what I do when I case all my leather. I add several drops of JOY liquid soad to my pan of water when casing, and then I take a piece of wet woolskin scrap, and apply a light coat of IVORY bar soap lather to the surface of the leather. The next day when I start cutting, most all of the drag is eliminated. I don't know if the soap is simply lubricating my blade or if it is nuetralizing the acids in the leather that cause the chemical reaction resulting in drag...I was going to research this and decided I really didn't care! It works and I'm happy. The addition of the soap when casing has never effected the finish on my leather, by the way. I use Herman Oak leather and most of the sides are pretty good, however occasionally I'll get one I almost can't cut, but the soap solves the problem! Bob Edited January 9, 2009 by hidepounder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveh Report post Posted January 9, 2009 Allen, You said that you getting drag on tight corners. When I cut with a swivel knife the pressure on the blade is always changing , as I begin a cut it is deep and wide, and fades out in depth and width as cut terminates. When I cut scallops and tight corners , I spin the barrel of the knife and almost pause the motion of the blade at tightest point to where there is little to no pressure on the blade, this method reduces drag for me. I like width with on the bevel of the blade, as this opens up leather. You may want to practice this and see if it works for you. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Steve I do have to work a bit on the control of the depth of my cuts. I tend to want to make everything as deep as I can go without cutting through. I noticed on a scrap piece last night that if I "lay-up" a little in the turns I can reduce some drag, but the beveling suffers a little as it isn't as deep and defined. I will play around some more. I am tempted to re-grind one of the Tandy blades to match the angle of the ceramic blade. The bevel is same angle but the the angle of the taper is different on the Tandy and the Barry King blades (steel).Even the Tandy steel filigree blade is slightly more obtuse. If I re-grind the blade (for a lack of the correct terminology) approach angle, I might find it works as well as the ceramic for me. Allen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Hello Allen This is probably not the issue but ............Are you lifting the heel of the blade slightly when cutting a curve? It sounds like you are leaving too much blade in the leather for the sharper curve if you are bunching up the leather and getting drag. I apologize if I'm off base here. Blake Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Blake, I think you are close, However I do not think I am lifting the heel as much as maybe not using enough angle. Angle away, and not toward me. I noticed that I have been holding the knife almost perfectly horizontal. Allen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Are you pulling or pushing the knife? I know that sounds like a dumb question but normally the knife is pulled although a well known and respected Leather Artist pushed his. I'm not sure exactly where Burnet TX is but if you are close to me you are welcome to come by and get a starter lesson and at the same time we can get your blades angled and sharpened correctly. If that isn't practical maybe Bob (Hidepounder ) could possibly post a photo of the correct way to hold and posistion the knife and blade. Kind Regards Blake Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Blake, I do not think the issue is a starter one. Although I am new to this craft. The blades are sharp as well, the angles are correct. I was taught that the knife should be angled slightly away from the user as it is pulled through the cut. Allen PS Burnet is NW of Austin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blake Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Hello Allen I Apologize, I didn't mean for it to sound negative that way. It just sounds like you are struggling a bit and I was trying to get an idea of what the issue might be so that I could offer some help. If the blade is dragging it is usually one of those causes. I got a few nice clean sides from W&C a few months back and they were terrible to carve . The blade would start dragging within two or three cuts and a little soap would help but not enough to take away the misery and wear on the blades. W&C replaced the leather after a quick phone call so occasionally it isn't the knife at all. The offer is open anytime that you are over my way to stop in and visit. Blake Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Papa Leather Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Sorry if I sound as if I was scolding, I was just clarifying. Believe it or not this thread has really made me consciously aware of my technique. I have discovered a few flaws in my swivel knife usage. I thank those who spoke up. I still intend on looking into different blades. Allen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hidepounder Report post Posted January 11, 2009 Scissormedic, When I'm using a 1/4" angled blade I hold my knife almost straight up and down. I angle it away from me (toward the tip) in tight turns and angle it toward me (away from the tip) on long straight cuts. When using a flat blade, the knife will always be angled away or toward the cutting tip. The problem that I have is holding my the knife verticle in a curve....I have a tendancy to want to lean to the side which produces an undercut. It's a very bad habit I developed somewhere along the way. After reading this thread it seems to me that you don't really have a blade problem. I think you are probably correct that your steeper ceramic blade is easier to run than your steel blade and you are just not accustomed to the feel of the steel. For what ever it's worth, I believe it is good to learn to use a knife with a large flat blade. I think it forces one to learn to manipulate their knife. Something along the lines of learning to drive a standard transmission before an automatic. The other thing that thing you mentioned was depth of cut. It is not necessary to cut really deep. Your pattern dictates the depth of cut as you are trying to create an illusion of depth which is another subject in itself. The more refined the pattern, the shallower the cuts will be. Hope this helps, Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
