Let's talk about Saddle Riggings

[AZThunderPony]

Sandy,

To add a picture. You need to first upload it to Photobucket or a similar program that will create hyperlinks for you. If you have two windows open it will work easiest. One for photobucket, and one with your text editor for your post here on the forum. At the top of your text editor you can see the tree symbol (picture with tree) In Photobucket select the bottom link style by copying it, then go back to your editor to click on the picture icon. A window will come up that you can paste the link into. Then hit okay.

Sounds complicated but actually very simple.

If you are unfamiliar with Photobucket let me know via email and I will try to walk you through it. Its very easy.

Hope this helps,

Susan

[Alan Bell]

David, I looked at the pdf and am not sure I follow the logic. You have the double ring as having the pull come from the front and rear girth yet on the drop plate the pull is only on the front girth. In rigging (concert, theatre, and construction) this is a bridle (if only the front girth was used) Pythagoras figured out the weight ratio (a squared plus b squared equal c squared) to show how much of the pull would be transfered to the back girth. Basically, you can take the distance measurements and they are the same as the weight or pounds of pull. So the distance from the rigging plate attachements front and rear squared plus the distance from the front attachment to the rigging plate squared equals the distance from the rear attachment to the rigging plate squared and that is the amount of pull that is transfered to the rear making a single rigged drop plate saddle pull just about evenly front to rear, This plus the addition of a rear girth strap would logically make the flat plate rig ride with the most amount of evenness as the horse moves and transfers weight through momentum. Your drawing gives the impression that the flat plate transfers force forward when in fact it transfers the force closer to straight down at the point of attachment especially if the angle between the point of attachment and the rigging plate is less that 45 degrees. This starts to get into trigonometry but I actually have an arena rigging manual that will let me calculate the amount of force if needed.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Cuz, all I ever had, Redemption Songs, these songs of freedom, Redemption Songs

Bob Marley

[Go2Tex]

Sandy,

To add a picture. You need to first upload it to Photobucket or a similar program that will create hyperlinks for you. ......

Actually, you don't need to do any of that fancy stuff to add a pic. Just use the simple "file attachments" field at the bottom of your reply window, use "browse" to find it on your hard drive, then click "add this attachment", then click where it says to add it to post. Not a problem.

See?

Thank you Go2Tex for the picture explanation. It's actually better to upload directly from your computer rather than to use a third party pic service like Photobucket, because the pages will load faster for our dial up visitors.~~Johanna

PS That is a beautiful saddle, but the pic is small. I would love to see a larger picture. Is it your work? Wow!

[andalusians2]

LlKE THIS???

Hi Guys. Sorry the attachment is so large. Now I just have to learn how to make them smaller. Please have patience.

Sandy

[David Genadek]

Allen,

I just presented those as configurations. The arrows do not represent force vectors. They are just where you would tie them on. The pictures below are just examples of those configurations in a form people are used to seeing. It is a hand out I use at clinics.

I believe what you mentioned here is the proof that when you pull on the point of the triangle the force will be directed to where the area of the triangle is divided in half. I agree fully with you. At the same time the other two configurations are valid also when properly used. Personally I am with you and all my rigging is of the triangular configuration and I also include rear rigging. However in the past the triangular rigging was used a lot with no rear rigging. They were called single rigged saddles in the old catalogs. The important concept here is exactly what you described which means a flat plate rigging is not just a couple of big hunks of leather that you slap on but actually a feat of engineering that the saddle maker should be aware of with a clear understanding of the consequences of the shapes that are created.

David Genadek

David, I looked at the pdf and am not sure I follow the logic. You have the double ring as having the pull come from the front and rear girth yet on the drop plate the pull is only on the front girth. In rigging (concert, theatre, and construction) this is a bridle (if only the front girth was used) Pythagoras figured out the weight ratio (a squared plus b squared equal c squared) to show how much of the pull would be transfered to the back girth. Basically, you can take the distance measurements and they are the same as the weight or pounds of pull. So the distance from the rigging plate attachements front and rear squared plus the distance from the front attachment to the rigging plate squared equals the distance from the rear attachment to the rigging plate squared and that is the amount of pull that is transfered to the rear making a single rigged drop plate saddle pull just about evenly front to rear, This plus the addition of a rear girth strap would logically make the flat plate rig ride with the most amount of evenness as the horse moves and transfers weight through momentum. Your drawing gives the impression that the flat plate transfers force forward when in fact it transfers the force closer to straight down at the point of attachment especially if the angle between the point of attachment and the rigging plate is less that 45 degrees. This starts to get into trigonometry but I actually have an arena rigging manual that will let me calculate the amount of force if needed.

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Bob Marley

[David Genadek]

where it belongs on Spanish Mustangs in the first place? The last place I ever put a girth is in the so-called girth channel. Anatomically that makes no sense to me.

How about fitting a SM for varied disciplines? From my perspective the horse’s biomechanics do not change from one discipline to another only the humans costume changes. The bottom of a saddle has no need to change from discipline to discipline there for there would be no need to make any changes to the rigging either.

David Genadek

Amazing David, Great observation of the round ribcage to narrowed but deep girth that is a norm on most Spanish Mustangs. But not necessarily normal for BLM mustangs.

I have used a packers cinch many time with my SM's to save them from gall and sore ribs. My question is why not make a tree that allows for a rigiging that hangs naturally where it belongs on Spanish Mustangs in the first place? I undertstand that as a norm there are few SM owners running around ordering specialized trees. But when one does arrive on the scene it would be nice that tree makers and saddle makers would have a notion what type of tree, rigging and other details are necesasary to fit that owners horse.

Spanish Mustangs are a very versatile horse, How about fitting a SM for varied diciplines? Working Cow or Ranch Horse Competitions, Endurance, Jumping, Gaiting, Dressage, Cutting, Barrels and much more??? What about fitting one horse for all of the above? Possible? Or 100 SM's for any one sport?

Another question how deos the rigging affect or how should it lay in relationship to different Sports?

S

[bruce johnson]

David.

Looking at your saddles shown by Jane in post 15 and 16 in this thread. Is this girth placed in the area you are referring to the "girth channel"? If it is not, would you place it forward or back from here? Is the rear cinch supposed to be hobbled this close to the front cinch? Looks like it would tend to catch spurs, I have enough spur tracks on my back cinches as it is. LOL. I think you mentioned somewhere that your saddles stay in place for roping. Would you rope with this rigging setup? Does the pull and vectors you are talking about keep the backend of this saddle down when roped out of, and out of the shoulders? Obviously Jane is not riding a roping/ranching saddle, but how do you (or do you) change the rigging for the ranch horse?

Obviously, most of us don't cinch one like this, which the reason for these questions. I am just having trouble figuring how splitting the triangle for a saddle that the horn is used for more than decoration is holding things as or more securely than both cinches sitting vertically and holding both ends of the tree down.

[SMUK]

To me the saddle looks too far forward on Whoodie also, sitting right on top of the shoulders, but the girth is sitting in the right place for a Spanish Mustang. If it is moved back to sit behind the shoulder blades to allow the free movement we all want, then the girth would sit too far back. I think that has been Susan's and my point all along. A lot of these horses need full rigging position, or at least adjustable, ie Sam Stag. But then if the saddle is moved back behind the shoulder, would they end up sitting too far back on the horse, and not in the "sweet spot"??

I took tracings of my horse yesterday and a couple of side-on shots. You can see where the shoulder ends, and his girth grove is pretty much straight down from the end of the shoulder, so the rigging position should be right under the fork in my opinion...

Here also a picture from behind, illustrating the shape of the horse from above

Edited July 18, 2007 by SMUK

[SMUK]

The last place I ever put a girth is in the so-called girth channel. Anatomically that makes no sense to me.

Why is that?

If we compare girthing a horse to tying a leather belt around our own chest tightly, where would you put it for the least discomfort? I bet you would put it right under your arm pits, or just an inch below, for maximum comfort. If you put it further down, you restrict your breathing and start to bruise or even crack your ribs. The same goes for a horse, though there is a little more room for error. If the horse has a little condition, the girth will slide naturally into the so- called girth channel. If the saddle is designd to sit just behind the shoulder, and the rigging doesn't fall to meet the girth groove, the straps will likely be pulled forward at an angle to sit there, or the horse will be uncomfortable and the saddle unstable if the girth sits too far back. If the horse is very fit and has no belly, the girth will slide further back, but then it is in danger of also sliding too far back. That is where the breast plate comes in. Where a good tree should always stay in the right position, adding weight of rider and movements of the horse, by the laws of physics a rigid tree will move, if the girth is not holding it in the right position.

Just my theory on all this

[mulefool]

Yes I would like to know that, too. The cinch is just naturally going to want to ride in that area. Maybe you could just elaborate on that a little.