Thoughts on fiberglass trees.

[jennifer]

Glad to know you read my comments.

You are probably correct that using modern techniques we have improved the strengh of saddle trees, but the wood itself is not as strong as the wood from years ago when we had old trees that had grown in more dense forests.

Jennifer

Jennifer,

interesting comments on how the production of synthetic materials affects the environment and is there an actual reason to produce trees made from these materials.

I don't agree with your statement about wood trees not being as strong today as they used to. I won't comment on the use of factory made wood trees because I don't use them... If you are talking about handmade trees, the way they are built today is every bit as good as they used to be and in many cases better. The trees I use are stronger and lighter than many of the old trees because the wood working methods have improved with the use of laminations of different woods in the forks and use of different woods for the bars and cantles which provide a great combination of strength, flexibility, and light weight. A good portion of a tree's strength comes from the rawhide and as long as treemaker's pick decent hides, the strength and integrity of the tree will always be top notch.

Darc

[Severe]

Good coment Darc & Jennifer

I cut my own tree wood and still find plenty of old growth, but you do have to know what to look for. I use Douglas Fir for it's weight to strenght ratio, also it holds screws and nail better than most other woods used in trees. Sitka spruce has a slightly better weight to strenght ratio but I've never tried it with the screws or nails.

I look for growth rings that are very close. This does two things, the wood is lighter and it has less spine. This means it will give more before it breaks, in a tree that means more strenght and flex. If you combine that with rawhide off of a older bull you have the best of materials to build a very refined tree that will flex a bit but still have the final strenght it needs to last under the torture test a working cowboy will put it thru.

I'm not against folks using the fiberglass, I just think it would not hold up over the long haul for my customers. Just a opinion, not trying to step on anyone's toes. RS

[AdamTill]

Adam,

Thanks for the tip on thinning the resin! I was wondering, would this would effect the cure rates and final strength of the epoxy?

The typical vacuum infusion process is what I'm using by drawing resin into the bagging mold after sufficient vacuum has been achieved.

Jon

Hi Jon,

It does affect final strength, yes, so it would be prudent to do some tests beforehand. Then again, so does curing at anything other then the manufacturer's ideal temp and about 1000 other things...

Cheers,

Adam

[3arrows]

Lots of interesting posts here on this subject. My son owns a customer auto-body shop that builds these new import "Tuners" and "Drift Cars" as they call them. They build a lot of kevlar and carbon fiber parts and let me tell you they are beyond belief as to how strong they are and can still be flexible. Id love to experiment with building a tree out of Carbon fiber and Kevlar or at least laminate the carbon fiber onto a wooden tree as an inner core. The carbon fiber would allow some flex, without the possibility of breaking. It is stronger than steel and with the right resins, will "Not" break.

Ive got access to the shop ( I loaned him the money to start it up, so I guess technically i own it). Any suggestions as to how carbon fiber would work? I have an old wooden tree out of a Bona Allen saddle that I tore apart, I might so some experimenting. What do you think?? thanks ron

Edited May 19, 2008 by 3arrows

[AdamTill]

Lots of interesting posts here on this subject. My son owns a customer auto-body shop that builds these new import "Tuners" and "Drift Cars" as they call them. They build a lot of kevlar and carbon fiber parts and let me tell you they are beyond belief as to how strong they are and can still be flexible. Id love to experiment with building a tree out of Carbon fiber and Kevlar or at least laminate the carbon fiber onto a wooden tree as an inner core. The carbon fiber would allow some flex, without the possibility of breaking. It is stronger than steel and with the right resins, will "Not" break.

Ive got access to the shop ( I loaned him the money to start it up, so I guess technically i own it). Any suggestions as to how carbon fiber would work? I have an old wooden tree out of a Bona Allen saddle that I tore apart, I might so some experimenting. What do you think?? thanks ron

Hi Ron,

Actually, carbon fibre is stiff as all heck, and will shatter if flexed to any great degree...that's why it's perfect for aircraft spars, car parts etc etc. If you want something to be relatively flexible or impact resistant, then kevlar is the way to go.

The huge difference in properties between carbon and kelvar is why those hybrid-woven cloths make no sense to me...the carbon will fracture long before any load is taken up by the kevlar. Pretty though.

Vaccum bagging is probably the best way to apply cloth to an existing part, though it would be tricky to get the bag to conform to a built tree I'd think. I'm in the process of making a set of molds for a tree, which is how I'll do things, but can't really start until I get my shop setup after moving (another month or so).

Cheers,

Adam

[jennifer]

I simply appreciate fine wood, and don't do cutting or carving, but I would like to know how many growth rings per inch you are getting.

I also thought you might enjoy a some information from the the environmental impact study of the harvesting by Superior Timbers of mnemonic sunkwood from Lake Superior. (Logs that sunk during the logging industry heyday).

According to the study there no longer exists the same quality of old growth lumber anywhere in the world that can compare to the lumber that was harvested by the U.S. and Canadian logging companies in the late 1890s to early 1930s. The lumber that is being brought up from the bottom of the lake includes red oak, white pine, maple, hemlock, basswood, yellow birches and red elms that were all seedlings when Columbus landed in America, but were clearcut almost to the point of extinction.

I pulled this statement from the Superior Timbers website:

Recovered from the depths of the Great Lakes Region and other waterways "Superior Timbers" are virgin old-growth timber 300 - 1200 years old. Grown under a thick canopy of evergreen trees and competing for limited nutrients and sunlight in overgrown forests, virgin hardwood species matured very slowly, accumulating up to 40 to 50 rings per inch. Today's rapidly maturing trees average only 5 to 10 rings per inch. These environmental factors resulted in the development of a finely grained, highly figured hardwood of exceptional quality and beauty. As of today our highest ring count has been 77 rings per inch.

Jennifer

Good coment Darc & Jennifer

I cut my own tree wood and still find plenty of old growth, but you do have to know what to look for. I use Douglas Fir for it's weight to strenght ratio, also it holds screws and nail better than most other woods used in trees. Sitka spruce has a slightly better weight to strenght ratio but I've never tried it with the screws or nails.

I look for growth rings that are very close. This does two things, the wood is lighter and it has less spine. This means it will give more before it breaks, in a tree that means more strenght and flex. If you combine that with rawhide off of a older bull you have the best of materials to build a very refined tree that will flex a bit but still have the final strenght it needs to last under the torture test a working cowboy will put it thru.

I'm not against folks using the fiberglass, I just think it would not hold up over the long haul for my customers. Just a opinion, not trying to step on anyone's toes. RS

[AndyKnight]

Over here in the interior of BC I still get old growth douglas fir. That isn't to say that there isn't huge amounts of second growth. I like to see 20 plus growth rings per inch. I had a log on the mill recently that had more than 400 growth rings.!! nice wood.

Typically trees that have grown in the harsher enviroment of the intereior of BC have tighter growth rings than coastal trees.

I have messed with epoxy and fiberglass on one tree. I would like to eperiment more at some time. I am definatly not against trying something that is different.

. It ( the glassed tree)was light, but I found rawhideing quicker, I am sure beeuse of my inexperience.

[Severe]

You saved me from counting rings Andy. I'm sure our fir in eastern Oregon is about the same.

I was wondering if you thought the glassed tree was about the same weight as the one with rawhide?

[AndyKnight]

You saved me from counting rings Andy. I'm sure our fir in eastern Oregon is about the same.

I was wondering if you thought the glassed tree was about the same weight as the one with rawhide?

I think it was lighter but not as strong. maybe comparable to a lightweight rawhide. You could use heavier fibergalss and more resin. to make it stronger. I havn't had time to mess with it. Some of that stuff can be hazardous although the bacteria in the rawhide has got me again recently.

[jonwatsabaugh]

It's been very busy around here as of late, and as a result I've had little time to sit down and keep up on the current posts, let alone offer any response. This is one subject though, I wanted to chime in on. All aspects of tree construction and materials used are very fascinating to me. Relatively new to the craft (about 4 years) of tree making, I've not built even a fraction of the number of trees that folks like Mr. Severe, Andy Knight, Rod Nikkel and many others have. This continuing journey though, has led me to experiment with different construction techniques and materials. By no means will I denigrate the use of rawhide as it has been used quite successfully for generations. Rawhide will probably always be the covering of choice because of it's proven track record and it's tradition. I still cover trees with rawhide on a limited basis, and probably always will. However, using the proper materials and application techniques composites will out perform rawhide, simply put. I am by no means an educated engineer, but my study and testing of composites has led me down this path to explore these materials as the strength covering of choice for my severe duty trees. To date all of the saddles I've built for cowboys that I know will abuse their gear, get glassed trees. The process of my using composites has evolved over the past 4 years to the point where I feel very confident about the performance of these materials. I had done all this work previous to this bit of history told me by Troy West when he came up to visit about a month ago. Back in the 60's and 70's when Phil Lyne was winning big time in calf roping, tree breakage had become a big problem. Phil broke 14 rawhide covered trees in all before getting a saddle built with a glass encased tree. That was the saddle he won his championship with and it is still in use today. Were they high quality rawhide trees? Don't know. Are glassed trees for everybody? No. But believe it or not there is a segment of the market that insist on them. As far as old growth timber, I'm not real concerned about that as I laminate my bars in addition to my fronts and cantles. Some call it over kill, but I like the extra stability it gives the base structure.

Jon

[Severe]

Good information in your post Jon. I build a few bows as a hobby and have worked with glass as a favor for a few folks in the aircraft industry.

The bows facinate me as I can see what could be in the application for saddle trees.

I also have heard the top ropers in the PRCA complain about tree breakage, while ordering a tree when we sold outside trees.

Most were steer trippers. We never had a problem giving them a tree that would hold up to the way they used them. I think the trees they break are white pine, covered with split rawhide. That seems to be the production treeshops choice of material. Also looking at broken trees, the forks and cantles are just set on the bars and stapled in place. It's only broken one's I got to look at so I'm not trying to slam anyones trees here.

Most of the cowboys stand there in horror thinking about the times they dallyed on that tree when seeing how it's built. If you've got the glass process figured out so it works for you, my hats off to you. I'd chearfully trade the smell of resin for the smell of rawhide, espeacially in the hot summer :^)

[jonwatsabaugh]

I wouldn't expect a poorly engineered glass encased tree to withstand high stress levels any longer than a poorly engineered rawhide covered tree. I just love to tinker, and in my tinkering away I discovered the huge world of composites and the vast array of applications for which they are used. Styrene emissions from polyester and vinyl ester resins are indeed unpleasant and harmful to inhale but I don't use either of these two resin systems. Epoxy is the way to go for a number of reasons, lack of nasty vapors is one of them. They are of a different chemical makeup than the previous two mentioned and do not contain styrene. Maybe Adam Till would comment. I know his knowledge and expertise far exceeds what little knowledge I posess on this subject.

Jon

[AndyKnight]

Jon. what type of epoxy and cloth are you using??

Andy

[jonwatsabaugh]

Andy,

I've used West Systems epoxy and a variety of lesser name brands. There is a whole host of companies formulating epoxy systems with even a wider variety of features, namely cure rates and viscosity levels. For wet hand lay-up a higher viscosity material works best for me. The cloth I am using is an 8.9 oz. twill weave E-grade that is highly drapable.

Jon

[Yonatan]

Jon,

Great information, lots of food for thought, and plenty of material for experimentation.

Is there a LOW TECH way to go with glass that has integrity?

Jennifer,

I hope you've been following these posts, because it should be heartening to see the way

top notch treemakers cope with the kinds of conditions that can haunt craftsmen in any generation--at any given time and place various limitations can arise. But our generation's GREAT custom treemakers (not referring to factory production) are in this for the love of it, and they work hard with tremendous ingenuity to make certain their work is the very best it can be. As Greg stated, today we've got a line up of outstanding treemakers. That goes for custom saddlemakers too, I'll add. Folks that build trees and saddles for working buckaroos and buqueras don't cut corners--they strive for excellence, and they are always growing. For sure, any recreational rider who orders a saddle from these makers are doing the very best for themselves and for the horses they ride. Old growth wood is amazing. But contemporary lamination methods applied correctly, correct mortise work, and the finest choice in rawhide will compensate for any inherent inferiority in new growth wood.

Darc,

Awesome work on your brown Visalia in the photo. Incredible detail. I think you posted photos of it before the crash--I meant to comment on it back then, but I shied away from posting at that time. I hope you continue to pursue these fine California saddles. If I can just get it together enough to upload photos, I've got some old classics to post for you.

Y

[Yonatan]

Sorry, I mixed contexts and neglected to mention that the thread where Darc posted those photos was "Rider Position on Horse", or a subject titled something pretty close to it.

Jennifer, please go check out those pics. The specific saddle of Darc's I mentioned is second up from the bottom, if I'm not mistaken. You can be sure that the quality craftsmanship visible on the surface of the saddle runs through and through, all the way down to the maker's choice of tree, and treemaker.

[jennifer]

Yonatan, Darc and so many others, I have been reading every post on saddle fit and construction and the saddle industry and thank you all for the great learning experience.

I may never make a saddle, but my horses will never have a poorly fitting saddle that wasn't made well placed on their backs.

I still havn't quite figured out the best seat for me, but I enjoy the discussions and am learning some of the things to look for. With two young horses I have been more concerned with not screwing them up and staying on board than thinking about what feels comfortable to me. (Green on green is a good combination to get black on blue.)

Thanks Again,

Jennifer

Sorry, I mixed contexts and neglected to mention that the thread where Darc posted those photos was "Rider Position on Horse", or a subject titled something pretty close to it.

Jennifer, please go check out those pics. The specific saddle of Darc's I mentioned is second up from the bottom, if I'm not mistaken. You can be sure that the quality craftsmanship visible on the surface of the saddle runs through and through, all the way down to the maker's choice of tree, and treemaker.

[TroyWest]

I actually spent over an hour a month ago typing a response on this post, and when I clicked on preview post, it all disappeared. I never did it again. I would like to share a few thoughts on the subject.

I've been building saddles for 31 yrs., my own trees for the past 9 yrs. The guys down here in Tx. who are the hardest on trees are calf ropers and trippers. I'd like to touch on a subject Jon mentioned earlier. Wilford Lewis, who passed away 1 1/2 to 2 yrs ago, was an excellent saddlemaker. He built saddles for many World Champions and celebrities as well. He had the same problems we all have getting his trees the way he wanted 'em and with good quality. He also had a lot of broken trees. He started building his own trees in the late seventies, early eighties. Jon Hillman, saddlemaker from Big Spring, Tx. told me he never saw prettier rawhide work on anybodies trees than Wilford Lewis.They were beautiful. Wilford Lewis told me he was getting 1 out 3 trees broken in the 80's. He was frustrated and decided to try covering one with fiberglass.He told me he couldn't remember if he used 1 or 2 layers of cloth but he thought it was 2, on his 1st one. About that time Phil Lyne called him and said he had broken 8 or 9 trees and needed something that would hold up. Wilford told him about the tree he had just built and Phil liked it and said build him a roughout. Wilford did and Phil went on to win the World title in tripping in '91 on this saddle.

Wilford told me this story quite a few years ago. I never doubted it as he wasn't a windy or dishonest guy at all. In fact he seemed to be of excellent character but I just like to verify facts when I can, so after Wilford passed away I called Phil Lyne. He lives in Cotulla, Tx. and still ropes of course. I related to him the story Wilford had told me and asked if the facts were right. He said yes except for one thing. I said "what?" He said, "he had actually broken 14 trees." I said "over what time period?" He said "3 or 4 yrs."

I said "what were you doing?'

He said "tripping steers."

He said "we were roping really big cattle back then. The steers weighed 800 lbs. They are roping lighter cattle now"

I said " What kind of saddles were they?"

He said " A lot of them were trophy saddles he'd won, but some were nice custom saddles he would of thought would hold up."

I said " you still got Wilfords saddle?"

He said " yea, It's in good shape"

After that Wilford built everything on glass trees. Thats probably why his son Ray has a tree co. that builds fiberglass covered trees.

In the last issue of Spin To Win magazine they asked Trevor Brazille what saddle he was riding. It was a Wilford Lewis. I also know Trevor recently had 2 saddles built by Jon Hillman. Jon uses nothing but glass trees of his own construction.

I talk frequently with Howard Coucil. If you don't know him he usually has half the calf ropers at the NFR on his saddles. His saddles are rawhide covered, glass reinforced. He told me he has been using glass for 50 yrs. He believes it's a proven product. He has taken saddles apart and completely covered 'em with glass.

The trees that had been breaking, when covered with rawhide, stopped breaking when covered with glass. Thats probably why glass trees are pretty well accepted down here. You can even take a broken rawhide tree, remove the rawhide, glass it back together and keep riding the same tree, and the leather goes back on perfectly. I've seen that done on a roper broken in the 70's and still being ridden today.

Now let me say this. Just because a tree is covered with fiberglass does not mean its a good tree. There's a lot of crap out there.

Conversely, just because a tree is covered with rawhide does not mean its a good tree either. There's a lot of crap out there.

But we cant throw out the baby with the bath water.

Good trees are built by craftsman who care about real quality, construction and fit. If you are having great success using nothing but rawhide trees, why would you want to change? I would say you wouldn't.

It's change thats hard on us, the fear of the unknown, acceptability, etc. At the same time, I know of no better field test than a roper tripping steers. Driving trucks and trailors over trees is not real working conditions...for most of us, yet it seems to be a common test everywhere.

Experimenting with fiberglass came about from a need to stop trees from breaking. It worked. If the bars had been made of different wood would they have held up better? Maybe. We dont have a lot of poplar in Tx. that I'm aware of. It is available and now we have the internet to help us find and learn things that just a few years ago were out of reach for most of us.

There are many different ways to apply fiberglass, different weights of cloth,how many layers of cloth, etc. Many factors, getting proper resin to cloth ratios. Some of the trees I've seen had way too much resin . You cant look at a tree and tell how many layers of cloth are on it.

I have to stop this post cause I'm tired of typing.

Let me just say that any custom treemaker who does great woodwork and makes a hi quality tree and covers it with rawhide, they will have a great product.

By the same token if he takes that same tree in the wood and paints it with resin and hand lays that cloth, it too will be an incredibly strong, waterproof, tree. I hope to share more thoughts later.

Troy

[AdamTill]

I wouldn't expect a poorly engineered glass encased tree to withstand high stress levels any longer than a poorly engineered rawhide covered tree. I just love to tinker, and in my tinkering away I discovered the huge world of composites and the vast array of applications for which they are used. Styrene emissions from polyester and vinyl ester resins are indeed unpleasant and harmful to inhale but I don't use either of these two resin systems. Epoxy is the way to go for a number of reasons, lack of nasty vapors is one of them. They are of a different chemical makeup than the previous two mentioned and do not contain styrene. Maybe Adam Till would comment. I know his knowledge and expertise far exceeds what little knowledge I posess on this subject.

Jon

Hi folks,

Regarding the health concerns with epoxy, it's a good idea to be careful, but the problems aren't something that will be instantly toxic (ie, a fair amount of bioaccumulation is required). For example, hobbyists's using a little bit every few weeks may be able to take no precautions what-so-ever and get away with that, but yet I've learned that a lot of folks who set out to build a 'glass 40' sailboat won't be able to finish the 3-4 yr project due to massive allergic reactions from exposure towards the end (even with a full-body positive pressure painting-type outfit).

When I work with resins I wear long sleeves, disposable gloves, and a chem-vapour safe respirator with replaceable cartridges. I'm actually more leery of spray paint then I am of epoxy, but I certainly respect it just the same.

Hope that helps,

Adam

[raftert]

It seems that the discussion on rawhide or glass covering a wood tree and wich one is the stongest. I think that there has been no discussion on the wood that the tree is made of. It would seem that if you made the tree of softwood rather than a hardwood( oak, maple, hickory, ect...) no matter what you covered it with it would not be as high quality. If a tree was made of oak and double covered with bullhide that it would virtually indestructable, but a tree made of a softwood like a popular and double covered bullhide it would not be as strong because the actual stucture of the tree would be inferior to the oak.

Tim

[jonwatsabaugh]

Tim,

Actually poplar is considered a hard wood. Lots of different types of wood have been used in tree making over generations, and poplar seems to posess all the characteristics benefitial to tree construction, longevity, and saddlemaking. It's easy to obtain good straight grain clear lumber, It has outstanding nail and srew holding properties, it machines very well, has a high degree of dimentional stability when moisture content is at a minimum, is relatively light weight for a hard wood, and doesn't split easily. Most hard woods posess many of these characteristics, but the weight consideration and namely the ability to drive nails and srews is paramount.

Jon

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Tim,

You bring up a good point. The quality of the wood used in trees is very important. Wood with huge knots and other defects in it is much weaker than wood that is clear. The thickness of the wood needs to be balanced with its properties in regards to strength. Laminating, especially when you have the grain running in different directions, also makes a major difference in strength compared to using a single, thicker piece of wood.

Here is something we had posted BC (before crash) that may help explain why most custom makers use a combination of woods in their trees.

As to the different wood used to make trees, there are three factors I can think of now that affects our choice of wood. The first is a very practical one – availability, especially in the size you need. It may be the best wood for bars, but if you can't get it, you don't use it. The second factor would be properties of the wood. Strength is a hard thing to determine, because there are so many facets to it. Is a wood stronger because it takes more PSI to make it snap (like a hardwood such as maple) or because it can bend more before breaking (like fir)? Some woods break easily across the grain, but don't split lengthwise. Others are the opposite. Some may take more pressure before they break, but are more apt to split when tacks are hammered in. Screw holding ability also comes into play. The number of defects in the wood and the ease of cutting around them is a factor. And workability is a big one. The harder the wood, the harder it is to cut and shape. Some of the "old masters" could make a drawknife sing, but they used mainly pine in their trees. With the advent of carving discs, etc. the use of harder woods is now an option that they didn't have available to them. And let's face it, cost comes into play a bit too. If we are happy with either of two options, the lower priced one will be purchased.

We like yellow poplar for the bars. It is available in a 2" thickness, and we have a supplier that lets us pick through a couple of lifts if need be to get the boards we want. While it is heavier than pine, it is about the same weight as fir (which we can't get), but it is substantially stronger. It is very difficult to break, and then it splits lengthwise, never across the grain. The charts say this is so, and in our own "torture tests" we have proved it to be true. We use several layers of 1" hardwood in the center of our forks, and price determines that this is usually maple. We also like birch, and have used ash. We tried oak, but it can split too easily for our liking. The cantle and the rest of the fork are made of aspen poplar. We can get kiln dried wood closer to home than the other woods. There are fewer knots and less gumminess than with pine. And the price is OK too. So those are our choices for now.

Definition wise, hardwoods come from deciduous trees while softwoods come from coniferous trees. Some softwoods are as strong in the testing as some hardwoods, and they all have different properties which need to be taken into account when you are choosing wood for a tree. Jon has pointed out the benefits of yellow poplar, which is one of the most common woods used by custom makers for their bars. It is important to note that "poplar" can be many different types of wood. The yellow poplar is an eastern hardwood also known as tulip wood, and is in a totally different classification from the common western poplar trees which include aspen poplar (or white poplar, or trembling aspen or quaking aspen), balsam (or black) poplar, and cottonwood. These are all softer woods than yellow poplar, but have similar or higher breaking strength than the pines most commonly used in factory trees today. Yet they are easy to nail into without splitting, which makes them ideal for cantles where you are nailing the seat in rawhide covered trees. We made a cantle out of yellow poplar – once. It split from the nails when Rod was rawhiding it. (Replacing a cantle on a tree that far along in the proces is not fun since we not only use screws but a very strong wood glue as well to attach the sections together.) The same would easily happen to maple or birch or oak nailing into wood as thin as a cantle gets towards the edge. And oak, despite its hardness, splits easily along its grain. We tried it one time as the hardwood in our forks and decided we were not happy with it for that reason. The weight factor would also come into play big time if an entire tree were made of a hardwood like maple or oak. So, like everything else involved in building trees, you are doing a balancing act in your choice of wood. But the quality of the wood you choose to use should never be compromised.

[raftert]

Jon, Rod, and Denise,

I did not know that much about poplar trees, the only poplar trees I have been around is cottenwood. The reason I brought this up I have recently repaired a name brand production saddle that the cantle was broken away from the bars. I told the customer that a fix on the tree would in know way be able to say that the tree would able to hold up to the roping that they were doing.The customer ended up trading me the saddle for on of my saddles. The tree on the boken saddle I fixed by pre drilling into the cantle and gluing with gorilla glue. The wood smelled like yellow pine. I screwed two three inch wood screws on each bar. I sold the saddle with expressed knowledge that the tree was repaired and would not hold up to any roping.

The rawhide on the tree looked compenant but either the the wood was inferior or it was not well made.

That is what started me thinking about the wood under the covering either rawhide or fiberglass.

Thank all of you for the education on the diffrent woods on the trees.

Tim

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Tim,

Your repair may very well have been stronger than the original construction of the tree. A lot of trees are not well made. They are often stapled together, with the better ones being nailed. We have only seen one company that uses screws to hold the parts together and we have yet to see any production trees glued together, though we sure haven't seen everything that has been made either. Soft wood like pine is commonly used in trees and loosening of the fork or the cantle from the bars is a common problem due to the construction methods. Not trying to run down anyone, but just telling the truth about most cases. Yet the majority still don't break...