Thoughts on fiberglass trees.

[jennifer]

I simply appreciate fine wood, and don't do cutting or carving, but I would like to know how many growth rings per inch you are getting.

I also thought you might enjoy a some information from the the environmental impact study of the harvesting by Superior Timbers of mnemonic sunkwood from Lake Superior. (Logs that sunk during the logging industry heyday).

According to the study there no longer exists the same quality of old growth lumber anywhere in the world that can compare to the lumber that was harvested by the U.S. and Canadian logging companies in the late 1890s to early 1930s. The lumber that is being brought up from the bottom of the lake includes red oak, white pine, maple, hemlock, basswood, yellow birches and red elms that were all seedlings when Columbus landed in America, but were clearcut almost to the point of extinction.

I pulled this statement from the Superior Timbers website:

Recovered from the depths of the Great Lakes Region and other waterways "Superior Timbers" are virgin old-growth timber 300 - 1200 years old. Grown under a thick canopy of evergreen trees and competing for limited nutrients and sunlight in overgrown forests, virgin hardwood species matured very slowly, accumulating up to 40 to 50 rings per inch. Today's rapidly maturing trees average only 5 to 10 rings per inch. These environmental factors resulted in the development of a finely grained, highly figured hardwood of exceptional quality and beauty. As of today our highest ring count has been 77 rings per inch.

Jennifer

Good coment Darc & Jennifer

I cut my own tree wood and still find plenty of old growth, but you do have to know what to look for. I use Douglas Fir for it's weight to strenght ratio, also it holds screws and nail better than most other woods used in trees. Sitka spruce has a slightly better weight to strenght ratio but I've never tried it with the screws or nails.

I look for growth rings that are very close. This does two things, the wood is lighter and it has less spine. This means it will give more before it breaks, in a tree that means more strenght and flex. If you combine that with rawhide off of a older bull you have the best of materials to build a very refined tree that will flex a bit but still have the final strenght it needs to last under the torture test a working cowboy will put it thru.

I'm not against folks using the fiberglass, I just think it would not hold up over the long haul for my customers. Just a opinion, not trying to step on anyone's toes. RS

[AndyKnight]

Over here in the interior of BC I still get old growth douglas fir. That isn't to say that there isn't huge amounts of second growth. I like to see 20 plus growth rings per inch. I had a log on the mill recently that had more than 400 growth rings.!! nice wood.

Typically trees that have grown in the harsher enviroment of the intereior of BC have tighter growth rings than coastal trees.

I have messed with epoxy and fiberglass on one tree. I would like to eperiment more at some time. I am definatly not against trying something that is different.

. It ( the glassed tree)was light, but I found rawhideing quicker, I am sure beeuse of my inexperience.

[Severe]

You saved me from counting rings Andy. I'm sure our fir in eastern Oregon is about the same.

I was wondering if you thought the glassed tree was about the same weight as the one with rawhide?

[AndyKnight]

You saved me from counting rings Andy. I'm sure our fir in eastern Oregon is about the same.

I was wondering if you thought the glassed tree was about the same weight as the one with rawhide?

I think it was lighter but not as strong. maybe comparable to a lightweight rawhide. You could use heavier fibergalss and more resin. to make it stronger. I havn't had time to mess with it. Some of that stuff can be hazardous although the bacteria in the rawhide has got me again recently.

[jonwatsabaugh]

It's been very busy around here as of late, and as a result I've had little time to sit down and keep up on the current posts, let alone offer any response. This is one subject though, I wanted to chime in on. All aspects of tree construction and materials used are very fascinating to me. Relatively new to the craft (about 4 years) of tree making, I've not built even a fraction of the number of trees that folks like Mr. Severe, Andy Knight, Rod Nikkel and many others have. This continuing journey though, has led me to experiment with different construction techniques and materials. By no means will I denigrate the use of rawhide as it has been used quite successfully for generations. Rawhide will probably always be the covering of choice because of it's proven track record and it's tradition. I still cover trees with rawhide on a limited basis, and probably always will. However, using the proper materials and application techniques composites will out perform rawhide, simply put. I am by no means an educated engineer, but my study and testing of composites has led me down this path to explore these materials as the strength covering of choice for my severe duty trees. To date all of the saddles I've built for cowboys that I know will abuse their gear, get glassed trees. The process of my using composites has evolved over the past 4 years to the point where I feel very confident about the performance of these materials. I had done all this work previous to this bit of history told me by Troy West when he came up to visit about a month ago. Back in the 60's and 70's when Phil Lyne was winning big time in calf roping, tree breakage had become a big problem. Phil broke 14 rawhide covered trees in all before getting a saddle built with a glass encased tree. That was the saddle he won his championship with and it is still in use today. Were they high quality rawhide trees? Don't know. Are glassed trees for everybody? No. But believe it or not there is a segment of the market that insist on them. As far as old growth timber, I'm not real concerned about that as I laminate my bars in addition to my fronts and cantles. Some call it over kill, but I like the extra stability it gives the base structure.

Jon

[Severe]

Good information in your post Jon. I build a few bows as a hobby and have worked with glass as a favor for a few folks in the aircraft industry.

The bows facinate me as I can see what could be in the application for saddle trees.

I also have heard the top ropers in the PRCA complain about tree breakage, while ordering a tree when we sold outside trees.

Most were steer trippers. We never had a problem giving them a tree that would hold up to the way they used them. I think the trees they break are white pine, covered with split rawhide. That seems to be the production treeshops choice of material. Also looking at broken trees, the forks and cantles are just set on the bars and stapled in place. It's only broken one's I got to look at so I'm not trying to slam anyones trees here.

Most of the cowboys stand there in horror thinking about the times they dallyed on that tree when seeing how it's built. If you've got the glass process figured out so it works for you, my hats off to you. I'd chearfully trade the smell of resin for the smell of rawhide, espeacially in the hot summer :^)

[jonwatsabaugh]

I wouldn't expect a poorly engineered glass encased tree to withstand high stress levels any longer than a poorly engineered rawhide covered tree. I just love to tinker, and in my tinkering away I discovered the huge world of composites and the vast array of applications for which they are used. Styrene emissions from polyester and vinyl ester resins are indeed unpleasant and harmful to inhale but I don't use either of these two resin systems. Epoxy is the way to go for a number of reasons, lack of nasty vapors is one of them. They are of a different chemical makeup than the previous two mentioned and do not contain styrene. Maybe Adam Till would comment. I know his knowledge and expertise far exceeds what little knowledge I posess on this subject.

Jon

[AndyKnight]

Jon. what type of epoxy and cloth are you using??

Andy

[jonwatsabaugh]

Andy,

I've used West Systems epoxy and a variety of lesser name brands. There is a whole host of companies formulating epoxy systems with even a wider variety of features, namely cure rates and viscosity levels. For wet hand lay-up a higher viscosity material works best for me. The cloth I am using is an 8.9 oz. twill weave E-grade that is highly drapable.

Jon

[Yonatan]

Jon,

Great information, lots of food for thought, and plenty of material for experimentation.

Is there a LOW TECH way to go with glass that has integrity?

Jennifer,

I hope you've been following these posts, because it should be heartening to see the way

top notch treemakers cope with the kinds of conditions that can haunt craftsmen in any generation--at any given time and place various limitations can arise. But our generation's GREAT custom treemakers (not referring to factory production) are in this for the love of it, and they work hard with tremendous ingenuity to make certain their work is the very best it can be. As Greg stated, today we've got a line up of outstanding treemakers. That goes for custom saddlemakers too, I'll add. Folks that build trees and saddles for working buckaroos and buqueras don't cut corners--they strive for excellence, and they are always growing. For sure, any recreational rider who orders a saddle from these makers are doing the very best for themselves and for the horses they ride. Old growth wood is amazing. But contemporary lamination methods applied correctly, correct mortise work, and the finest choice in rawhide will compensate for any inherent inferiority in new growth wood.

Darc,

Awesome work on your brown Visalia in the photo. Incredible detail. I think you posted photos of it before the crash--I meant to comment on it back then, but I shied away from posting at that time. I hope you continue to pursue these fine California saddles. If I can just get it together enough to upload photos, I've got some old classics to post for you.

Y