Severe

Billy, the black your getting off the hardware is the polising agent they use for that shine. Use a rag with solvent of some kind to wipe it off(even gas will work) I put on some nitrite gloves to keep it off my hands while cleaning it off so no transfer to the leather. Herbs hardware is well worth the little extra time cleaning the polish off. Hope this helps, Robin.

I haven't been by the computer for a bit, sorry I missed this one. Bruce is right, the Assn as we know it came from the Ellensburg tree. The Hamely tree shop did not change the tree at all. It still fit horses and came with a horn. Most of the bronc riders hammered the horn forward or cut it off and built the front of the bars up to help them mark a horse out and get a higher reach with the spur lick. My dad started building the front of the bars up in the wood at the request of the riders and just leaving the horn off. We also leave a bit more rock in the bars and beef them up a bit in the back because the guys are forever riding the floor checking the binds in the sturrup leathers. We also leave the fork fuller where your thighs hit it than the Ellensburg tree was. The original fork would bruise the riders thighs. The modified Assn or improved was slightly lower in front and just refined, same bars. If you lay the bar patterns out there is quite a differance between the ellensburg and all the hamely roper bars. The ellensburg and wade bar is a full inch shoter than the ropers for the same seat size.RS

Very very nice work, lots of it too. I really like the clean lines. The breast collar caught my eye right off. Looking forward to the next new one. Robin

Rod, The wood in that tree is Douglas Fir in the fork & bars. The cantle is Ponderosa Pine. I do still use the same wood. If it's a ladys tree or one that will never see a rope I use rawhide that thin also. That is a Quarter Horse tree and has a pelican horn, clearly not made to rope critters. But it does have a couple pretty deep rope burns in the horn leather. I think rawhide that comes from a older cow critter is also tougher and you can get away with thinner hide, or if you know the fella getting the saddle is gonna really use it hard use older thick hide and frustrate him. He won't get it to break no matter how hard he trys :^) Look forward to meeting you sometime Rod, love to disscuss tree making with you and what you've found works best and what don't for you. Robin

I'm gonna try to provide a little information here to maybe clarify what I ment without offending anyone. First , I don't sell tree's, have not sold a outside tree to anyone in about 15 years. This is not a attempt to down grade anyones tree's just what I've found works best for myself and the saddlemakers & treemakers who taught me. I know the materials that I use and the rest is only what I hear, and that is not something I would pass on untill I've tryed it. This saddle was made around 1955, it's here for a relining job. It's a very good example of what I mean on a refined tree. It was made by my dad when I was 2 or 3 years old. As you can see the bars are shaped very thin. The rawhide was steerhide, not bullhide. We switched to bullhide later for the ropers and trippers, also the bronc trees. Now, what I mean by flex is just this. I can set this tree on my rock, slide a peice of 15 oz leather under the front of one bar. I can then push down on the front and rear of the opposing bar that is off the rock and get all four points of the bar touching by applying around 40 lbs pressure. If I want more flex I'd just add another peice of leather and apply more pressure. This is what I mean by a tree flexing. On a roper I'd want the tree to resist the flex a little more than this tree, but I still try to refine them like I was taught. The more the pressure, the more the wood and rawhide will resist, it trys to return to it's original shape. At some point the tree would fail, we need to leave enough safety margin for that. This tree and a bunch just like them have have passed the test of time with flying colors. There are other benifits to doing them like this, to the saddlemaker, the horse & the rider. I've built trees this way for some time with great success, I'm only now starting to understand why.

Nadine told me awhile back that one of the grandkids was working on a web site for them. She wasn't sure that it would work out for her & Herb. I'd second the statement that they don't need one, pretty busy. Really top folks, glad to live near and be able to pick up hardware and get a visit in at the same time.

This was done about 40 years ago, I'm sure with a 1/2 blade

MFM, scroll cutting works well for belts. Thats what I practiced on to get good enough to cut cantle bindings. I don't use a pattern though. Ben, I'll take a picture and get it on soon. My uncle showed me some scroll cut birds once that a friend of his did. Don't have a clue what happened to them. They were the best cutting I've ever seen bar none. I do remember the friends name was Jim Donalson ( not sure on the spelling) and I think he has since passed on. RS

I think I'm the guilty party talking about flex in a tree. Here's my thoughts on the topic. If you set a well shaped tree on a horses back, and it bears fully on his back thru the bars you have a good fit. That is only if he is standing squarely. Watch what happens to your perfect fit if he cocks a foot. Now think about a horse thats say, cutting a cow, or maybe turning the corner after laying a trip. How far from normal shape is ol roany's back now. At best he's just got a 150 lb rider on top of that saddle or maybe that rope with a steer hitting the end of a rope. We can fix some of that with the sheepskin and a pad but the more we pad the more we jack the bars off the horses back and the more leverage comes into play. I think the bars in a well made tree act very much like the limbs in a bow. Depending on the amount of energy put on them they move, maybe only slightly but they move. The grain of the wood prelodes energy to come back to the point they started. The rawhide cover or fiberglass which ever is used keeps the wood from taking to great a lode and breaking. When bowyers build bows they try to follow the grain of the wood, if they violate the wood grain the bow limb will fail. Unless they back it with something to stop it. They use several things, rawhide, sinew, bamboo, and glass to name but a few. This is like laminating a tree. If they can store the energy, and release it time and time again without failer they don't have to laminate. Look at a picture of a cutting horse making a turn. They first have to collect, to get the stop, then while the back legs and hindquarters are turning one way, the front legs, head and shoulders are coming thru a turn in the other direction. The bars in a tree are postioned to flex with the horses back, unless we made them to thick to flex. I don't think this was done on purpose, I think by trying to fit a horses back it just happen when tree makers started refining trees to fit first the horse and then the rider. Whats the perfect balance? Depends on the use of the saddle. You can't have, say a roper flex to much. It may pinch a bit when the horse tuns off. Allthogh I doubt theres much of a problem with bars flexing on ropers, more of a problem with horns high enough to have lots of leverage. Fiberglass may be able to solve some of the problems tree makers encounter. So may things like carbon or kevlar, only time will tell. One thing I do know, it will take horsemen & horsewomen. Horses can't talk and folks who don't use the gear won't know what a horse is trying to say. Sorry for so long a post, just my two cents worth. RS

Ian, it's a bead border. The tool I have for it is older than me and looks to be home made. Horseshoe brand tools sells one I think. Here's a picture of the back, I didn't take one of the side gusset. It's 4" wide skirting, about 7 oz. If you pinch it in at the top when it has moister in it it will train that way.

Pete, on these purses I just freehand the scroll cuts. On some things if I want it endless I'll lightly scrib the main cuts so they end up right. tazzmann, keep using that knife. I have a small bit of my uncles scroll work that keeps me trying to get better. It was a bit of his doodling when trying to come up with some new scroll work. Bruce, The rawhide holds it's shape well over time and seems to put just the right bind on the strap. Only draw back is the speed my bride can draw a check book. The back is covered with chocolate elk, I'll try and get a picture of it on tonight.

Thanks all. There's only one big pocket in it and some gals like lots. My bride just wanted one and it needed to be tough. She packed her first one about eight years. It's still not wore out, I just thought she needed a new one.

I came up with this saddlebag pattern 12 or 15years back after a request from my wife. I do one or two a year mostly as gifts. The scroll cut ones seem to be the favorites but I've flower carved a few. This one went to a young lady that was tops in her graduating class.

Sure look great.

Good information in your post Jon. I build a few bows as a hobby and have worked with glass as a favor for a few folks in the aircraft industry. The bows facinate me as I can see what could be in the application for saddle trees. I also have heard the top ropers in the PRCA complain about tree breakage, while ordering a tree when we sold outside trees. Most were steer trippers. We never had a problem giving them a tree that would hold up to the way they used them. I think the trees they break are white pine, covered with split rawhide. That seems to be the production treeshops choice of material. Also looking at broken trees, the forks and cantles are just set on the bars and stapled in place. It's only broken one's I got to look at so I'm not trying to slam anyones trees here. Most of the cowboys stand there in horror thinking about the times they dallyed on that tree when seeing how it's built. If you've got the glass process figured out so it works for you, my hats off to you. I'd chearfully trade the smell of resin for the smell of rawhide, espeacially in the hot summer :^)

Aaron, I'm Randys brother Robin. No worries, in a family of seven brothers we all answer to everyones name. I think I met you at the saddleshop once, a few years back.

You saved me from counting rings Andy. I'm sure our fir in eastern Oregon is about the same. I was wondering if you thought the glassed tree was about the same weight as the one with rawhide?

Thanks to all of you for the nice coments. I'm new here and you make a person feel welcome. The sheath was kinda small and it was hard for me to do much. I just stuck it on the belt to show the angled belt loop. I think I have pics of some better scroll work. Thats pretty big stuff. Here's a picture of the blade out of the sheath, I think Doug said the handle is Mammoth tooth (fossilized I think) It sure feels good in your hand. Very hard to ship back to him.

Every year I get to team up with a friend and Bladesmith Doug Campbell of Montana for a auction item. The auction is on a Traditional Archers site and all the procedes go to Saint Judes children's hospital. This group raised over $75,000 last year. I don't get to do many sheaths (no time) but sure look forward to doing one each years for one of Dougs blades. The blade is damascus and I'll try to get a picture on tonight that shows off the little caper better.

Good coment Darc & Jennifer I cut my own tree wood and still find plenty of old growth, but you do have to know what to look for. I use Douglas Fir for it's weight to strenght ratio, also it holds screws and nail better than most other woods used in trees. Sitka spruce has a slightly better weight to strenght ratio but I've never tried it with the screws or nails. I look for growth rings that are very close. This does two things, the wood is lighter and it has less spine. This means it will give more before it breaks, in a tree that means more strenght and flex. If you combine that with rawhide off of a older bull you have the best of materials to build a very refined tree that will flex a bit but still have the final strenght it needs to last under the torture test a working cowboy will put it thru. I'm not against folks using the fiberglass, I just think it would not hold up over the long haul for my customers. Just a opinion, not trying to step on anyone's toes. RS

I do believe there is a place for fiberglass in the tree industry, just not in working saddles. By working saddles I meen one going on colts or where someone will dally a rope on the horn. The best test I've ever watched of a tree was a movie crew. They strapped a camera on a brand new fiberglass bronc tree and stuck it on a horse first. It survived that ok but got a good ding in the stripping chute. We glassed that ding back up and it got a trip on a bull next. The bull swelled up with air on the first jump and broke the fork and cantle and the fiberglass strainer down the middle. We pulled a old rawhide tree outta the attic, a old Hamley assn. that had been used a bunch but someone had brought it in with the leather removed. This was a tree covered in steerhide not bullhide. Dan Luft told me he never used bullhide at Hamleys. Long story short. The rig made 4 more trips on a bull that I watched and the movie crew took it with them. We never got a requst for another old tree so I assum it did the job. I'm all for progress, and beleive someone will come up with a new mousetrap someday. I just think, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'll leave the new mousetrap to the younger generation, I'm to old to learn new tricks:^)

Really good stuff in this thread. I started building trees under my dads instruction, he learned from Walt Youngman at Hamleys. After shaping wood for three years I started learning the rawhide end under Dan Luft ( he was the rawhider for Hamleys for years) I would work the first part of the week in the wood then take the trees in and Dan & I would start rawhiding. It was great to learn under a couple guys that had the experence to show me the little tricks that make life easyer. I in turn helped my brother monty learn to rawhide and also helped Warren Wright for a short time get some hands on in the hide room. After about six years we had a saddlemaker retire upstairs and my uncle started teaching me to build saddles. I started building assn. treesand when I had about 12 built up I'd go upstairs and start putting leather on. I was pretty fortunate to learn both trades from guys who were considered experts. This is all leading up to one thought that I've had for some time. Learng both trades has helped me do both jobs better. When I start a tree now , I know pretty much what I want the saddle to be and I shape the top of the tree to help me in that reguard, when the leather go's on it lets me get to where I want to be. Down side? you can't fool the saddlemaker, or lay the blame on the treemaker. If you only do one, I'd still advise every treemaker to build a saddle, and every saddlemaker to build a tree. RS

Thanks all. I'm looking forward to getting to know folks here and seeing your work.

It's all the little things that add up. You can drop to 12- 13 oz leather, And lighter hardware. Maybe go stainless as it's a bit stronger. In skirt rigging is my lightest rigging and just as strong as any if put in right, also lots of stirrup freedom. Narrow up your stirrup leathers to 2 1/2" and the rear tugs to 1 1/2". You can also spit a lined tug a little and it will still hold up well if the holes are stitched around. Cut the skirts up under the fender where it's not visable, this will also let her feel the horse a little more. I do this to all my cutters now. Just a few things that help. Bulk usally means weight, if you can remove bulk without sacrificing strength thats the way to go. Oh yeh, oil it lightly, ever notice how heavy a quart of oil is? Looking forward to pictures

Hi all, looking forward to seeing all you do with leather. A big thanks to Rod Nikkel for telling me about this site and Johanna for overcoming my computer difficultys. I've been building Saddles and Saddletrees for a living since 1976 but never get out to other shops much. There sure enough venues here to keep me reading for a good long time. Robin Severe