What cantle height do you prefer

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Seeing KAWs saddle with that tall cantle set me to wondering again...

We have built cantles from as low as 2 3/4" (a copy tree from an old, broken saddle) to 6" tall. Some makers have expressed concerns with tall cantles catching a rider in the back if things "get western". Other don't think it is a problem. While cantle height is often rider preference, height combined with angle and dish also affect how the groundseat is built.

Questions for the saddle makers: What cantle height do you prefer and why? How does it affect your groundseat? Do you have safety concerns with taller cantles? Are there any cantle heights you would refuse to build on and why?

[Alan Bell]

Rod and Denise, I was going to try and talk to you about this very thing. I printed out your articles about cantles, horns, gullet width, etc. It got me to really thinking about the "forward seat" and its mysteries! part of the function of the slick fork was to be able to allow a rider to sit a bit more forward comfortably thus enabling you to be a bit more in line with the horses balance spot. Of course this balance spot moves forward the faster the horse goes so with a slick fork you are not fighting to stay 'up' with the horse. Theoretically! As you said the height and angle affect the ground seat as does the number of layers to the build up in a ground seat AND where the strainer attaches to the fork. Might then an shallow angle on the inside of the cantle help slide the rider into the sweet spot and tuck the hips which rounds the lower back placing the rider on his "W's"? So then with a shallower angle or dish how does this affect the cantle height? Wouldn't we want a straighter cantle back because a leaning one with a shallow dish would be basically tipping the cantle backwards? Is that a factor? The saddle tree maker fits the horse: the saddle maker fits the rider. Maybe not totally true! Can't we design a tree that will make it easier for the saddle maker to fit the rider into the position that is most beneficial to balanced/centered riding? My brain is swimming!

Vaya Coin Dios, Alan Bell

Natty Dread Rides Again!

Bob Marley

[KAW]

I will order whatever the customer wants, they are paying for what they want so that is what they get, I may make suggestions but it is their choice.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Alan,

Lots of food for thought in your post. You hit a number of different points, most of which we see as a saddle maker's responsibility, though the tree maker can help or hinder him in his work by how the seat is made in the tree.

1.) Slope of the face of the cantle and how it affects the ground seat. You say a couple of things here that I would like to clarify a bit so we are talking about the same thing. At one point you mentioned "a straighter cantle back" and at another you talk about "a shallow angle on the inside of the cantle" and at a third you talk about "tipping the cantle backwards." It is important to understand that while these things are all related, they are three separate things that are independent of each other. In making a cantle, the angle – whether the cantle is tipped back a little or a lot – is the first of these three parts cut because that cut is what makes the cantle fit onto the bars. That angle is only seen if you look sideways across the rim of the cantle. That angle is what we look for when we check to see how “laid back†or “stood up†a cantle is. The angles of the back and the face can be whatever we make them after that within all cantle angles.

Once that angle is set, the amount of dish and cantle height combined determine the slope (or angle) of the face of the cantle, which is vital to how you want to make your groundseat. The amount of dish is set (and measured) at the top of the cantle gullet. That point will stay the same compared to the rest of the tree regardless of the height of the cantle. As you increase the cantle height, the top of the cantle rim moves further back from that point, resulting in a “shallower angle†on the face of the cantle. So if you determine the type of slope you want for the face of the cantle, you would have to change the amount of dish you order depending on the cantle height. For a taller cantle you need more dish to get the same slope you have on a shorter cantle.

We were once asked to make a tree with the slope of the face of the cantle a specific number of degrees off the table. We had never measured this before, so it took some figuring but we were able to do it. We thought it a rather silly request, but after consideration we have since measured that angle on all our trees. Now it was a rather silly request because that angle is affected by how the bars are shaped, so between makers the numbers mean absolutely nothing. Even within our own trees, the numbers mean absolutely nothing other than allowing us to compare the slope between cantles with different heights, angles and amounts of dish. So we haven’t talked a lot to saddle makers about this yet because we don’t want them to get hung up on certain numbers, since, as we’ve mentioned, the numbers mean absolutely nothing and yet without numbers, how can we discuss it? And yet this slope is probably what most helps or hinders a saddle maker as he builds his groundseat.

As for the back of the cantle, that is the last thing that gets done, and as long as there is enough wood for strength, it is strictly cosmetic.

2.) Rider position relative to the horse. What a can of worms that one is. The truth as we see it is that the rider is going to sit in the lowest point of the saddle, regardless of where that point is placed, simply due to the effect of gravity. No amount of trying to "go with the horse" can move you further forward for more than a step or two before you slide back into the "pocket" placed there by the saddle maker (unless you have a totally flat seat which leaves you moving all over the place - not necessarily a good thing). The fork type has no bearing on this though with a slick fork there is nothing to stop your legs from going further forward over the sides of the fork, whereas with a swell fork, those swells would hold you back. However, the shape of the seat is what really keeps the rider in one place.

As far as being able to move forward with the center of gravity of the horse, the only way to do that at speed would be to ride a jockey saddle placed right over the withers above the front legs. I (Denise) learned that one by experience in my younger days when I was told I could ride only this one horse, and only bareback because she was so grossly obese that nothing would fit her well enough to use. She was a mutton withered, barrel shaped horse to start with, and you literally had to press down to find the top of her withers amongst all the fat. There was nothing you could use to hold you back on this horse, and at a lope, her knees, as they came up, hit my feet. I consistently ended up at the base of her neck above her front legs. That was where the "center of gravity" put me. This is why Rod feels the whole idea of being "over the center of gravity" is not worth while considering. It is just not possible in a western saddle at most gaits, no matter how it is made.

The western saddle was originally designed for long hours of use. It has a lot more surface area under the bars to distribute pressure better, and the aim of a well designed tree and saddle is to stay out of the horse's way as much as possible so as not to interfere with his normal way of going. (There is a lot involved in that in many areas.) For the rider, the goal is to be in the best position possible for the horse to most easily carry their weight for long time periods, while being both secure and as comfortable as possible. Being over the horse's center of gravity at all times doesn't fit into that scenario.

3.) Rider posture. All sorts of "experts" argue about what is the "correct" body position of the rider. And yes, the seat you build in the saddle dramatically affects the rider’s posture. But that is in the saddle maker's domain, and would make a great thread if you wanted to start it. We're staying out of that one.

The answer to your last question, “Can't we design a tree that will make it easier for the saddle maker to fit the rider into the position that is most beneficial to balanced/centered riding?†is yes. The opinions on what that “most beneficial†position is varies between saddle makers. We have the capability to make the cantle the way you would like. The purpose of our question is to find out from saddle makers what it is that that they find the most beneficial in regards to the way a cantle is constructed that helps them make a good ground seat. This is not just for our information, but hopefully the discussion will help any saddle maker. (Without sending their brains for too long a swim.)

[bruce johnson]

I usually go for a 4" plus or minus a half inch cantle. My calf roping saddle is a 3-1/2" and the others are 4" or more. I think the angle and amount of dish is more of a factor for the back grabbing when horses buck. A really straight up fronted cantle with more dish will tend to pivot up into yout lower back - a bad thing. A cantle with a little flatter slope to it will push on your lower pelvis and roll your tailbone more underneath you (sitting on the "W"s, as Alan said) - a good thing. Especially if you set a low spot and a place to sit slightly in front of, not on, the cantle. This is a factor of dish, cantle angle, and how much groundwork the maker leaves in that area. I have heard this referred to as a "beaverslide seat".

Looking at some of those old timer bronc saddles - the seats were shorter and the cantles were steep and not "filled" all that much. That combination will bite. Modern bronc saddles have longer seats and more cantle slope. Also most guys will adjust their leathers so there is just cantle pressure at full leg extension. The seats are longer (15-1/2 to 17-1/4" seats) vs. the 15" on the oldies. More "float" and less "mash" now when things get western in a bronc saddle or a western saddle. You could probably get some argument from Don Butler, me, and anyone else who has broken a pelvis in the saddle if "float" is always a good thing though. LOL.

Another factor I see vary from maker to maker is at the front corners of the cantles. Some will curve around more the front and others will blend down the bar. The first will tend to grab a "wider-beamed" rider at those corners. I don't know how else to describe this and how to tell a treemaker about it. It is below the meauring point for "dish", so dish really can't account for it.

The final concern I have with cantles is how well it blends into the bars. Some trees will have an abrupt angle, and others will have a graceful curve. The abrupt angle can be filled in somewhat with groundwork.

I guess everything I have concerns about is with the front of the cantle. The backs vary by treemaker. Some makers have the backs pretty flat, and others undercut a little and have some "undercurve" to them. The straighter ones probably have a little more footprint on the bar and are potentially stronger. I like a litle curve, and can use a filler to make an undercut to slide my rear jockeys up under.

[Alan Bell]

Denise (and Rod) I think Bruce is describing a 'Taylor' Cantle. I am thinking along the lines of a Taylor cantle 4 1/2" with a 35 degree angle, 1 1/4" dish and a straight back. In your opinion would sitting on a bare tree made like that feel different than sitting on a bare tree with a regular cantle 4 1/2" with 35 degree angle, 1 1/4" dish and a straight back. Wouldn't the Taylor tend to tuck the riders hips in even more or does it just make the rider "feel" more forward because of less bar and thigh space? It would be nice to have a bunch of different ones to fool with in order to decide what does what and what effect it has on the rider and his or her desired style of riding. If I can order a tree with the cantle basically in the shape I am going to build the ground seat into anyways then I can do a little less skiving or building up. Like you say the riders butt finds the lowest point because of gravity wont the Taylor described above slide that point a little more forward with less effort on the saddle makers part? I ask a lot of questions because I know how I would like to feel when I ride. At the Cowboy Museum when Dale and Steve built the saddle I asked both if they set in their ground seats while building them and they both said "No". I like to sit in each one I build and I'll have six or seven different people of all sizes and levels of riding experience and if I can't get the customer over then I like to get someone of similar build and in doing this it seems that fitting the cowboy that rides all day is a lot easier than fitting the "dude" or housewife that hardly rides at all. The cowboy is a lot more forgiving and will adjust to make the saddle work. Dale touched on this and told a story of how he rode an ill fitting saddle on a hunt but by the time the hunt was over he had adjusted and thought the saddle wasn't all that bad! Another reason I ask so many questions can be summed up with this story; at the same deal at the Cowboy Museum they had an "expert" speak about saddle fit. Right off the bat he talked about how he wanted the bars to gap along the horses back so that when the horse gathered itself and rounded it would fill in that gap and he used cutting as his example. (he had a heavy drawl so he sounded like he knew what he was talking about LOL) Well he did say "What do you think, Dale?" and Dale answered "Well, I like to have as much of the bars in contact with the horses back at all times as possible." Seems the "expert" didn't really have a lot to offer and they just should have let Dale speak! Anyways, down here in "The Saddle Making Capitol" of Texas I can't hardly find anyone with a logic and experience based idea or opinion on anything to do with saddles. Plenty of opinions; just no logic!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Rise up this morning, rise with the rising sun. Three little birds are by my doorstep, singing sweet songs a melody pure and true. Singing "this is my message to you"

Bob Marley - Don't Worry

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Alan,

Good questions and thinking material. It seems we are trying to work toward the same goal - putting the seat in the tree to be most like what the saddle maker wants his groundseat to be so he has less work to do. Clarifying what that might be (for different makers, because it is not only tree makers who do things differently) is what we are aiming to get out of this thread.

A question for you is, "What is your definition of a Taylor cantle?" because I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. (We know of at least 3-4 definitions.) When we make what we call a Taylor cantle, a number of things change but the basic cause of those changes is the amount of dish it is physically possible to put into a cantle.

(Warning: Technical material in this paragraph. Please skip if you get bored by details... I have a couple of pictures of similar trees taken, unfortunately, at slightly different angles. The first is a regular cantle, more stood up angle, 5 " tall by 12" wide.

The second is what we call a Taylor at the same angle and height, but 11 1/2" wide.

The difference in our trees (remembering that every tree maker does things differently - especially with cantles) is best seen in the angle of the row of nails where the cantle meets the bars. It is much sharper in the regular cantle than the Taylor. That angle is consisten within the two categories of regular and Taylor regardless of the amount of dish they have, but there are limits on the amount of dish that is possible to put into each type. The maximum dish one of our Taylor cantles has is 1" simply due to the geometry of how they are made. The minimum dish one of our regular cantles can have is 1" in the more laid back angles and 1 1/4" at the more stood up angles. There are other changes necessitated by the change in angle, but this is complicated enough already and Rod keeps telling me to keep it simple.)

So we can't really compare between Taylors and "regulars" because they generally have different amounts of dish. If we could, they should feel pretty much the same, because even with the differences between the two, so much depends on the shaping of the cantle. Like so many other parts of the tree, the measurements can be the same but the shape can be very different. My understanding of what Bruce is saying that he likes the cantle to blend nicely into the bars at the front (the area we call seat blend) and not be like a couple of two by fours joined at an angle. That blend can be made smooth, though differently, in almost any type of cantle, though a cantle whose specs require a very stood up slope to the front of the cantle is the most difficult to make nice. In our trees, Rod makes the low spot ahead of where the cantle joins rather than the base of the cantle regardless of the specs of the cantle. So the slope comes down the front of the cantle and continues down onto the bars for a short distance before starting to climb again.

Just like fitting a tree to a horse where you have to put it on and see it because you can't compare between makers any other way, the best way to find out what a seat is like is to sit in it. Being able to sit in a bunch of different trees really would give you the best idea of what you want. I would hope that most tree makers, custom or factory, would be open to someone visiting and checking things out that way. I know we are, though we generally don't have too many trees around at a time, and we are rather off the beaten track. (We do have electricity and running water up here though. And no igloos - in summer... )

I know a lot of saddle makers who "test drive" their saddles as they build the seat. But it also depends on who you are building the seat for. Rod spent a lot of time sitting in the saddle he made for himself as he was working on the groundseat. He loves it. Fits him perfectly. I don't like it at all because we are built very differently. So for him to check the groundseat by sitting in it if he were to build me a saddle would do no good at all. (The thread Blake started on groundseats for men versus women would be a very interesting read if more saddle makers added to it.) I would think by the time you get as much experience as the guys you were learning from have, your head would know the shape you are after so your butt wouldn't need to test drive it anymore.

Hopefully some of this helps you understand the factors that affect the construction a bit better. If I understand both you and Bruce correctly, you are both trying to build a seat that lets people "sit on their pockets" and round their lower back more. Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying that having a sloping seat gives more support to "the W’s" area while the rider is sitting straight so they don’t slouch back?

Bruce,

I can't quite picture what you mean when you talk about "the front corners of the cantles. Some will curve around more the front and others will blend down the bar." Here is a picture of a tree with a "normal for us" cantle, but a curved line drawn where we can take off that front corner for "leg cut". (Please ignore all the other writing.) Is that difference what you are meaning? Or could you explain more?

Thanks,

Denise (for Rod, who is sane enough to be sleeping by now)

[greg gomersall]

Alan if both your regular cantle and your taylor cantle are at the same angle on the same seat length the thigh lenght measurement on the taylor will be longer due to the more acute angle of the cantle cuts on the bar.

As for Joel's talk at the TCA he said he felt a saddle should bridge a little so a horse can round up under neath it. This is not a desireable trait in a usin rig but I believe that if a person were building an areana only type rig you might reconsider, in reining, cutting etc. a horse is constantly underneath himself and his back rounded up quite frequently, The "slight" brigeing effect at this time might work to your benifet. Greg

[bruce johnson]

Denise,

That is "kind of" what I was referring to at the cantle corners. I had occasion to ride a saddle that the cantle points dug in a little right below the pockets if I got rocked back or reached back with my leg. It was on a fairly high cantle, 5" or so. It got to be fairly obnoxious by the end of the day.

A few months later I talked to the guy who built the saddle. Asked him who made the tree (so I would be forewarned). A few factors were at play. I will preface this by saying I know little about making cantles. Apparently this tree maker had one cantle "pattern" and so the bottom was shortened to make the various heights. It had an oval profile from the front. As the height increased, the oval was "raised". This made a pretty good undercut at the corner instead of blending into the bars. This saddlemaker thought it was a plus, because he could really tuck the seat jockey ear up in there and it made a tight clean look. The issue was the point of the cantle was running around that oval and made a ridge where it started to curve around and went up the bar. I like to have that point blended in and not continue forward. Some better groundwork could have filled that in a bit too.

As far as test fitting seat. I had a guy I respect tell me he learned to test fit by stripping down to underwear, and sat in the groundseat for a while. If he was pretty comfortable at the end, he thought it was probably going to be alright. When he got his shop in town, he didn't use that method anymore. LOL.

As far as seatbuilding in the cantle area, I want to slouch back. I leave the angle pretty full in the center. That way the first thing that hits is down low and kicks the bottom of your pelvis forward relative to the top. It rolls your butt up underneath you, rather than getting hit up higher and and kicking the top of your pelvis forward and arching your back. If the back end comes up, you are forced forward and down if your back is "slouched" or curved back. If your back is arched, everything stiffens and it forces you up and out. The low spot in front of the cantle on the bars makes that kind of a seat easier to build. A trainer I worked for used to say, "sit on your pockets". When they figured that out, it changed to "sit on your belt loops". An exaggeration, but worked.

Greg,

Interesting point about the arena saddle vs. cowboying saddle. I had asked that question a while back on another thread, may have even been another list. I had been told that same thing about having a little clearance for the horse that really rounds up. It makes sense to me. I think probably front and back pad shapes and angles play a significant part in fitting these horses. They round up when stopping and turning, but then may hollow out when they jump out and go across the pen. Those pads have to bear weight without digging in. What I AM really curious is, what kind of contact these horses have when they drop that front end and are low behind, doing that little "cow dance"?

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

As far as seat length and thigh length comparisons from Taylor to regular, you actually get the same thigh length for the same seat length on both. (Rod and I disagreed about this point until we had enough data to convince me that he was right...again. Sigh...)

While it appears that what you are doing is taking moving the corners of the front of the cantle back so the thigh length should be longer, actually what is happening is that the rim of the cantle, from where you measure both seat and thigh length, is staying in the same place and the center of the cantle is what is moving forward to change the angle of those cantle cuts.

So yes, your rider is sitting further forward in the seat with a Taylor cantle because the front face of the cantle has moved forward, and whatever low spot you are putting in the seat has also moved forward. As such, the front corners of that cantle will be further behind his legs than with a regular cantle. But the actual measured "thigh room" is the same - on our trees at least. Seat length measures the same. Thigh length measures the same. But top of cantle gullet to top of fork gullet would measure shorter (though the last thing we need is another place to measure on these trees!)

[greg gomersall]

Denise; Correct me if I am wrong but with a taylor cantle is not the tree bar shorter on any given seat size as compared to the length of bar used in conjunction with a regular cantle?

Blake I tend to agree with you and as you noticed I emphazied the word slight as to bridging. Greg

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Bruce,

So as far as we are picturing it, the thing you don't like about the corners of the cantle is when they come too far forward on the bar, which goes along with them going down the bar a long way. That leaves them sticking out front of the center of the cantle a long way so that is what "eats" your leg. Have we got it yet?

Question as far as the groundseat goes. How much do you think your being involved in fast competition type riding such as cutting affects the way you like to be positioned in the seat? Would you build a similar seat for a recreational rider on calm horses just trail riding most of the time?

Greg,

You are correct in that the bar length is shorter with a Taylor cantle compared to a tree with a regular cantle with all the same specs (with the exception of dish).

Here goes the "technical explanation" as to why. When we make a tree, we have 6" of wood behind the cut in the bar for the cantle. All our markings for the fork and cantle cuts are made on the inside edge of the bar where the cantle gullet meets the bar. So while the front corners of the cantle end up the same place toward the outside edge of the bar, the mark on the inside edge where we start the cut is close to an inch further forward. We then measure 6" back from there to the end of the bar and so the bar ends up close to an inch shorter in total. Since the rider is also sitting further forward in a Taylor cantle (as I hopefully explained well enough in the last post) you still have adequate bar surface area behind them.

Maybe it will help in understanding what is going on to change the way of we think about the angles. Rather than thinking about the angle getting flatter on a Taylor (which causes us to picture the front corners of the cantle moving back), think about pulling the apex of the triangle further forward. This is what is really happening in how we mark and cut out the bars.

Hope that helps. Keep asking questions if it still isn't clear.

Denise and Rod

[bruce johnson]

Denise,

Second try, the computer ate my homework on the first reply. We are getting closer! What I don't like is that this particular treemaker's trees had the eqivalent of the the oval lifted straight up. This made a smaller footprint on the bars, and brought the cantle corners closer together in front of the cantle face. I think they were probably cupped out a little more at the lower corners of the face, and that made the ridge that bites. Your tree I have along with my others are flatter in the lower corners and blend smoothly into the bars.

Regarding the seats. I make the same basic seat on about all of them. I have had one request for and made a ridgepole seat from swell to cantle. I like to be able to slightly slouch. I sit like that in a chair, in the truck, and on a bench. Say I was sittling in a straigh back kitchen chair. I shove my fist in where the seat meets the back. That is the feel I want. Much like using a wedge or rolled up towel on an old Chevy truck seat. I put that same feel in at the cantle/bar angle and taper it up the face of the cantle. I want that to roll my pelvis underneath me. That is what sits me deeper when a horse stops and the backend drops. It slides me down and deeper if the backend comes up. When I am just sitting in a saddle, I want about 3 fingers clearance from my back to the top of the cantle. I want that same measurement when I am done with my groundwork. That cantle will get closer with the rolling of a lope, but hopefully I am sitting quiet and everything else is moving around me. I put the low spot near the middle of the seat. (Your tree is just right for that BTW). I have done a lot of things on horse, but none spectacularly. I rode pleasure horses as a kid, reined, roped, bridle horses, cut, and started a lot of colts. I found I did the best when I stayed on them and out of their way and that was usually toward the middle. If I needed to get back, it was usually on a cutter sucking back under me, and that is what pushing on the horn is for. I am attaching pics of three different saddles with different purposes, but the same basic seat geometry. My calf roping saddle is built on a 15" tree. The roughout is kind of an all around cowhorse saddle - roping/ cutting/reining. The inlaid seat saddle is my wife's 16". She just rides for now, until we figure out what her horse wants to do for a living (I think he will make a good one). These saddles all pretty well keep you where you need to be.

[Alan Bell]

Greg, I guess that truly is the question. What really got me thinking on all this is that I learned to ride a cutter by riding an old retired horse that was sway back! He was catty as all get out but a bit too chargy for a cutter and I think that sucking him back was what I was supposed to be learning but hearing everybody around me talk about them "rounding up" and "sucking back" when I'm on a sway back horse really got me to thinking.

Back to the topic, I never answered Denise; I am using your definition of a Taylor cantle from your PDF. I had never heard of them down here in TX. Things like this have been a big issue for me as I am a fairly observant kinda person and I analyze things a lot. I didn't grow up riding and when I finally got into a position to start I learned from a friend that was taking lessons and he'd show me some things he had learned but couldn't explain why! So from the get go I wanted to know why, not just how. I started braiding about the same time and then it lead to leather work and saddlery. In dealing with folks down here I find that most are NOT knowledgeable enough to really make a custom order and truly know why they are requesting what ever it is they are requesting. In my current profession I drive for an Audio/Video company and we supply gear and technicians for corporate events. My boss says his BEST customers are the ones that don't know exactly what they want because he can steer them towards what WE do best and they are thrilled when we can deliver exactly what we said! HHMMMM! Maybe I can do it with these Yahoos down here and I'll be a HERO! (and then woke up....but it was a lovely dream while it lasted)

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

It takes a joyful sound to make the world go 'round

Bob Marley - Punky, Reggae Party

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Bruce,

I think I might have it now. The front corners of the cantle that you had problems with were quite close together rather than finishing further down the bar. So that edge finished up underneath your seat and not behind your legs. Then it had the dish starting sharply from the edge of the cantle which left a ridge rather than have a more gradual slope from the side to the center which would support you better. Have I got it right? If so, I can see how basically sitting on the rim around the cantle would be uncomfortable, to say the least. Makes sense now.

Alan,

OK. That means we are not clear enough in our information article on the fact that a Taylor cantle cannot have more than an inch dish. Need to work on that next time I rewrite that article (someday...in my spare time...) To quote Rod, "A Taylor cantle does not have a lot of dish, which is why it is made the way it is made." The term "Taylor cantle" was given to us by Julian Tubb from whom Rod learned to build trees. How common a definition it is "out in the real world" we are not sure, but it seems to be known in the custom saddle making industry. Between makers, the actual angles of the cuts will vary I am sure, but maximum and minimum amounts of dish allowed by the different cuts are the reason that we have "regular" and "Taylor" cantles.

As far as the marketing goes, sometimes you have to make a decision between making what a person wants and what they need. That is where education can come in - helping them understand why what they are asking for won't work for them the way they think it will. If they respect your work enough, most of them will listen to you. If they still want what you know won't work well, you then have to make the choice between not taking their order, which may not make them happy, or making what they what, knowing that they will not be happy with it. But if you did a good job on your explanation, at least they will know why! Some may bad mouth your product, but some will come back and say, "You were right. Make it your way now". Depends on the person. Hard choice to make. From previous job experience I know that the last thing you want to do is make what they need when they still want something else. They will almost never be happy with it, even if it is the best thing in the world. The ones who trust you enough to let you do things the way you want are very nice to work for. Sounds like your boss is a good salesman to get people to take his advice without realizing that they are doing that.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[Alan Bell]

So Denise, I am looking at the cantles in figure 8A and 8B. And let's say for the sake of this discussion (and my ideal fantasy) that you two make all my saddle trees! To me looking at the pics it appears that 8B is more in line with what I would like to ride and that it will facilitate placing the rider more on his hips, with a rounded or tucked lower back. The face of the cantle is less steep. If I wanted all my trees, regardless of cantle height to have a cantle face like 8B how would I order them from you. For the sake of example lets say a 3 1/2 tall cantle, a 4" tall cantle ant the 4 1/2" tall cantle pictured. Everything else is the same with each saddle tree except cantle height (horn, swells etc.) Is it simply a matter of ordering the 3 1/2" cantle with 3/4" dish @35 degrees the 4" cantle with 1" dish @35 degrees and the 4 1/2" cantle with 1 1/4" dish @35%? By Jove, I think I've got it! Then it would be possible for me to have consistency in the feel of my seat no matter what cantle height was ordered. From what I am gathering without this knowledge each tree ordered with a different cantle height would come with a different cantle face unless I was able to specify. I know your motto but would you say that is how it is for the majority of the saddle makers out there even if they order a custom tree? Unless they specify how much dish and only specify cantle height in their order, each tree will have a different cantle face!?! I'd really like to add the consistency of having the ability to order trees that will help me build a consistently good saddle. Consistently! (just had to say it one more time!!!!)

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Until there's no longer any first class or second class citizens of any nation Yeah. I say 'WAR'

Bob Marley - WAR

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Alan,

By Jove, you DO have it!! The actual numbers may be different, but you definitely have the geometry idea right.

Most saddle makers tend to order a consistent dish regardless of height and angle on their cantles. That is one of the reasons we wrote that article - to try to explain as well as we could about the different slopes so they could get what they wanted for their groundseat.

The cantle in Eight A in that article has a very steep slope to it. The saddle maker probably had to take time to fill it in a bunch to make a nice seat, but that is what they ordered. We have two makers, both with a lot of working/riding experience in their lives, who will only order the exact specs of the cantle in Eight B. Rod is just saying here that he feels that it is possible make a good seat in something with less slope than that. It depends on the type of seat you are after. But the one in Eight A is too steep for our liking.

By the way, I just checked our charts and the slope in Eight B (a regular cantle) is very similar to the slope of a lot of our Taylor cantles. So you are also correct in how you were seeing the way a Taylor cantle would work for your preferred seat. (Two By Joves in one post - great!!)

Rod and Denise

PS. If anyone is interested in reading the information article Alan is referring to, it is on our little, tiny, supposed to be hidden, for information only website at http://www3.telus.net/nikkelsaddletrees. It is the one labeled "Cantles" (surprise, surprise).

[daviD A Morris]

Denise,

Hope I'm not going over stuff someone else has said, as I don't have enough time to read all the responses, but here is my little contribution to your piece:-

"We were once asked to make a tree with the slope of the face of the cantle a specific number of degrees off the table. .... but the numbers are meaningless"

When designing any new tree,( which I do on AutoCad, and, in the timber at the same time), my primary datum is the "government line". This is a line along the top (spine edge) of the bar starting from the corner formed at the front mortise of the bar ( for attachment of the fork) , to the coresponding corner of the "birdsmouth" mortise cuts at the back end for the cantle attachment. Denis Lane and Waren Wright started calling it the "government measurement" and apparently there is some history to it, going back to the US cavalry saddles and how they measured the seat length, which actualy makes more sense than the way western saddle seat lengths are conventionaly measured. Having said all that, this government line makes for a good datum. Now when it comes to trying to measure cantle slopes in a way that is comparable between trees, whithout being so affected by the variations in bar shapes. What I do is wedge up the back of the tree with a couple of little wooden wedges until the government line is parrallel to the table surface, before I measure any angles, or anything else for that matter. Of course this doesnot make every measurement absolutely comparable between one tree and another but it sure makes it a lot more comparable. You will also find that by jacking up the back of trees till that government seat line is parrallel to the table gives you a better picture of what it will look like on a horse.

I'll post a diagram explaining the "government" line or measurement in the next couple of days. Just realised what I've said there, it would be a prety good diagram that could explain a government. Australian government couldn't be explained with a book full of diagrams, unless they were cartoons!

regards

dam

Edited August 23, 2007 by daviD A Morris

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

David,

I haven't seen discussion here about the government measurement as such yet, so it will be great to have pictures to explain it better for people. Looking forward to your posts.

As far as I know, every hand maker uses the concept of the government measurement between the two cuts on the bar for the fork and the cantle, though we call it different things. This is what changes with different seat (and thigh) lengths between trees, while the amount of wood in front of the fork cut and behind the cantle cut stay the same. I think it is Warren who has done the history research to come up with the term government measurement (it governs the size of the tree) and has taught that term to Dennis, ourselves and probably others.

I haven't heard about making a "government line" as such between the two corners. As far as slope of the face of the cantle, the way we make trees, that is not present until the bars are all shaped first, so the drawn line would be gone by then. You must just level up those two corners? What else do you measure off that line? It's got me thinking again...

Denise

PS. I don't know any other governments that are truly straight and that could be leveled out that easily either.

[daviD A Morris]

Denise,

Yep, you got it. On a finished tree, once the seat part of the tree has been shaped, the line itself doesn't actualy exist. Yes I just make the 2 end points level with the table. It just levels the vast variations in bar shapes. I know that this helps with making comparisons between different trees, because when Denis and I were at Pete Gorrel's place, Denis and Pete were trying to make comparisons between trees from 2 different makers ( Pete has a fantastic collection of trees from just about every treemaker). Because the outline of the bars varied so much, lager or smaller fan at below the cantle points in particular tips the tree to a diferent angle when it is on the bench, but may not change the angle at all when on a horse. I have found that if you jack the back of the tree up to make those two points level with table it makes your measurements more comparable, and I had the oportunity to prove it on that day. Once the tree is rawhided you have to just make an estimate of where the botom of the "V" of those mortise cuts are, but you can usually get within an eighth of an inch at each end.

Drawing will follow when my computer is up and running again. Blue flame firing out the back of the power-suply was not a good sign.

regards

dam

Denise,

"What else do I measure off that line?" I also measure the distance between the bars at the front and rear ends of that line as well as the seat length.

regards

dam