What cantle height do you prefer

[greg gomersall]

Denise; Correct me if I am wrong but with a taylor cantle is not the tree bar shorter on any given seat size as compared to the length of bar used in conjunction with a regular cantle?

Blake I tend to agree with you and as you noticed I emphazied the word slight as to bridging. Greg

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Bruce,

So as far as we are picturing it, the thing you don't like about the corners of the cantle is when they come too far forward on the bar, which goes along with them going down the bar a long way. That leaves them sticking out front of the center of the cantle a long way so that is what "eats" your leg. Have we got it yet?

Question as far as the groundseat goes. How much do you think your being involved in fast competition type riding such as cutting affects the way you like to be positioned in the seat? Would you build a similar seat for a recreational rider on calm horses just trail riding most of the time?

Greg,

You are correct in that the bar length is shorter with a Taylor cantle compared to a tree with a regular cantle with all the same specs (with the exception of dish).

Here goes the "technical explanation" as to why. When we make a tree, we have 6" of wood behind the cut in the bar for the cantle. All our markings for the fork and cantle cuts are made on the inside edge of the bar where the cantle gullet meets the bar. So while the front corners of the cantle end up the same place toward the outside edge of the bar, the mark on the inside edge where we start the cut is close to an inch further forward. We then measure 6" back from there to the end of the bar and so the bar ends up close to an inch shorter in total. Since the rider is also sitting further forward in a Taylor cantle (as I hopefully explained well enough in the last post) you still have adequate bar surface area behind them.

Maybe it will help in understanding what is going on to change the way of we think about the angles. Rather than thinking about the angle getting flatter on a Taylor (which causes us to picture the front corners of the cantle moving back), think about pulling the apex of the triangle further forward. This is what is really happening in how we mark and cut out the bars.

Hope that helps. Keep asking questions if it still isn't clear.

Denise and Rod

[bruce johnson]

Denise,

Second try, the computer ate my homework on the first reply. We are getting closer! What I don't like is that this particular treemaker's trees had the eqivalent of the the oval lifted straight up. This made a smaller footprint on the bars, and brought the cantle corners closer together in front of the cantle face. I think they were probably cupped out a little more at the lower corners of the face, and that made the ridge that bites. Your tree I have along with my others are flatter in the lower corners and blend smoothly into the bars.

Regarding the seats. I make the same basic seat on about all of them. I have had one request for and made a ridgepole seat from swell to cantle. I like to be able to slightly slouch. I sit like that in a chair, in the truck, and on a bench. Say I was sittling in a straigh back kitchen chair. I shove my fist in where the seat meets the back. That is the feel I want. Much like using a wedge or rolled up towel on an old Chevy truck seat. I put that same feel in at the cantle/bar angle and taper it up the face of the cantle. I want that to roll my pelvis underneath me. That is what sits me deeper when a horse stops and the backend drops. It slides me down and deeper if the backend comes up. When I am just sitting in a saddle, I want about 3 fingers clearance from my back to the top of the cantle. I want that same measurement when I am done with my groundwork. That cantle will get closer with the rolling of a lope, but hopefully I am sitting quiet and everything else is moving around me. I put the low spot near the middle of the seat. (Your tree is just right for that BTW). I have done a lot of things on horse, but none spectacularly. I rode pleasure horses as a kid, reined, roped, bridle horses, cut, and started a lot of colts. I found I did the best when I stayed on them and out of their way and that was usually toward the middle. If I needed to get back, it was usually on a cutter sucking back under me, and that is what pushing on the horn is for. I am attaching pics of three different saddles with different purposes, but the same basic seat geometry. My calf roping saddle is built on a 15" tree. The roughout is kind of an all around cowhorse saddle - roping/ cutting/reining. The inlaid seat saddle is my wife's 16". She just rides for now, until we figure out what her horse wants to do for a living (I think he will make a good one). These saddles all pretty well keep you where you need to be.

[Alan Bell]

Greg, I guess that truly is the question. What really got me thinking on all this is that I learned to ride a cutter by riding an old retired horse that was sway back! He was catty as all get out but a bit too chargy for a cutter and I think that sucking him back was what I was supposed to be learning but hearing everybody around me talk about them "rounding up" and "sucking back" when I'm on a sway back horse really got me to thinking.

Back to the topic, I never answered Denise; I am using your definition of a Taylor cantle from your PDF. I had never heard of them down here in TX. Things like this have been a big issue for me as I am a fairly observant kinda person and I analyze things a lot. I didn't grow up riding and when I finally got into a position to start I learned from a friend that was taking lessons and he'd show me some things he had learned but couldn't explain why! So from the get go I wanted to know why, not just how. I started braiding about the same time and then it lead to leather work and saddlery. In dealing with folks down here I find that most are NOT knowledgeable enough to really make a custom order and truly know why they are requesting what ever it is they are requesting. In my current profession I drive for an Audio/Video company and we supply gear and technicians for corporate events. My boss says his BEST customers are the ones that don't know exactly what they want because he can steer them towards what WE do best and they are thrilled when we can deliver exactly what we said! HHMMMM! Maybe I can do it with these Yahoos down here and I'll be a HERO! (and then woke up....but it was a lovely dream while it lasted)

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

It takes a joyful sound to make the world go 'round

Bob Marley - Punky, Reggae Party

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Bruce,

I think I might have it now. The front corners of the cantle that you had problems with were quite close together rather than finishing further down the bar. So that edge finished up underneath your seat and not behind your legs. Then it had the dish starting sharply from the edge of the cantle which left a ridge rather than have a more gradual slope from the side to the center which would support you better. Have I got it right? If so, I can see how basically sitting on the rim around the cantle would be uncomfortable, to say the least. Makes sense now.

Alan,

OK. That means we are not clear enough in our information article on the fact that a Taylor cantle cannot have more than an inch dish. Need to work on that next time I rewrite that article (someday...in my spare time...) To quote Rod, "A Taylor cantle does not have a lot of dish, which is why it is made the way it is made." The term "Taylor cantle" was given to us by Julian Tubb from whom Rod learned to build trees. How common a definition it is "out in the real world" we are not sure, but it seems to be known in the custom saddle making industry. Between makers, the actual angles of the cuts will vary I am sure, but maximum and minimum amounts of dish allowed by the different cuts are the reason that we have "regular" and "Taylor" cantles.

As far as the marketing goes, sometimes you have to make a decision between making what a person wants and what they need. That is where education can come in - helping them understand why what they are asking for won't work for them the way they think it will. If they respect your work enough, most of them will listen to you. If they still want what you know won't work well, you then have to make the choice between not taking their order, which may not make them happy, or making what they what, knowing that they will not be happy with it. But if you did a good job on your explanation, at least they will know why! Some may bad mouth your product, but some will come back and say, "You were right. Make it your way now". Depends on the person. Hard choice to make. From previous job experience I know that the last thing you want to do is make what they need when they still want something else. They will almost never be happy with it, even if it is the best thing in the world. The ones who trust you enough to let you do things the way you want are very nice to work for. Sounds like your boss is a good salesman to get people to take his advice without realizing that they are doing that.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[Alan Bell]

So Denise, I am looking at the cantles in figure 8A and 8B. And let's say for the sake of this discussion (and my ideal fantasy) that you two make all my saddle trees! To me looking at the pics it appears that 8B is more in line with what I would like to ride and that it will facilitate placing the rider more on his hips, with a rounded or tucked lower back. The face of the cantle is less steep. If I wanted all my trees, regardless of cantle height to have a cantle face like 8B how would I order them from you. For the sake of example lets say a 3 1/2 tall cantle, a 4" tall cantle ant the 4 1/2" tall cantle pictured. Everything else is the same with each saddle tree except cantle height (horn, swells etc.) Is it simply a matter of ordering the 3 1/2" cantle with 3/4" dish @35 degrees the 4" cantle with 1" dish @35 degrees and the 4 1/2" cantle with 1 1/4" dish @35%? By Jove, I think I've got it! Then it would be possible for me to have consistency in the feel of my seat no matter what cantle height was ordered. From what I am gathering without this knowledge each tree ordered with a different cantle height would come with a different cantle face unless I was able to specify. I know your motto but would you say that is how it is for the majority of the saddle makers out there even if they order a custom tree? Unless they specify how much dish and only specify cantle height in their order, each tree will have a different cantle face!?! I'd really like to add the consistency of having the ability to order trees that will help me build a consistently good saddle. Consistently! (just had to say it one more time!!!!)

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Until there's no longer any first class or second class citizens of any nation Yeah. I say 'WAR'

Bob Marley - WAR

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Alan,

By Jove, you DO have it!! The actual numbers may be different, but you definitely have the geometry idea right.

Most saddle makers tend to order a consistent dish regardless of height and angle on their cantles. That is one of the reasons we wrote that article - to try to explain as well as we could about the different slopes so they could get what they wanted for their groundseat.

The cantle in Eight A in that article has a very steep slope to it. The saddle maker probably had to take time to fill it in a bunch to make a nice seat, but that is what they ordered. We have two makers, both with a lot of working/riding experience in their lives, who will only order the exact specs of the cantle in Eight B. Rod is just saying here that he feels that it is possible make a good seat in something with less slope than that. It depends on the type of seat you are after. But the one in Eight A is too steep for our liking.

By the way, I just checked our charts and the slope in Eight B (a regular cantle) is very similar to the slope of a lot of our Taylor cantles. So you are also correct in how you were seeing the way a Taylor cantle would work for your preferred seat. (Two By Joves in one post - great!!)

Rod and Denise

PS. If anyone is interested in reading the information article Alan is referring to, it is on our little, tiny, supposed to be hidden, for information only website at http://www3.telus.net/nikkelsaddletrees. It is the one labeled "Cantles" (surprise, surprise).

[daviD A Morris]

Denise,

Hope I'm not going over stuff someone else has said, as I don't have enough time to read all the responses, but here is my little contribution to your piece:-

"We were once asked to make a tree with the slope of the face of the cantle a specific number of degrees off the table. .... but the numbers are meaningless"

When designing any new tree,( which I do on AutoCad, and, in the timber at the same time), my primary datum is the "government line". This is a line along the top (spine edge) of the bar starting from the corner formed at the front mortise of the bar ( for attachment of the fork) , to the coresponding corner of the "birdsmouth" mortise cuts at the back end for the cantle attachment. Denis Lane and Waren Wright started calling it the "government measurement" and apparently there is some history to it, going back to the US cavalry saddles and how they measured the seat length, which actualy makes more sense than the way western saddle seat lengths are conventionaly measured. Having said all that, this government line makes for a good datum. Now when it comes to trying to measure cantle slopes in a way that is comparable between trees, whithout being so affected by the variations in bar shapes. What I do is wedge up the back of the tree with a couple of little wooden wedges until the government line is parrallel to the table surface, before I measure any angles, or anything else for that matter. Of course this doesnot make every measurement absolutely comparable between one tree and another but it sure makes it a lot more comparable. You will also find that by jacking up the back of trees till that government seat line is parrallel to the table gives you a better picture of what it will look like on a horse.

I'll post a diagram explaining the "government" line or measurement in the next couple of days. Just realised what I've said there, it would be a prety good diagram that could explain a government. Australian government couldn't be explained with a book full of diagrams, unless they were cartoons!

regards

dam

Edited August 23, 2007 by daviD A Morris

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

David,

I haven't seen discussion here about the government measurement as such yet, so it will be great to have pictures to explain it better for people. Looking forward to your posts.

As far as I know, every hand maker uses the concept of the government measurement between the two cuts on the bar for the fork and the cantle, though we call it different things. This is what changes with different seat (and thigh) lengths between trees, while the amount of wood in front of the fork cut and behind the cantle cut stay the same. I think it is Warren who has done the history research to come up with the term government measurement (it governs the size of the tree) and has taught that term to Dennis, ourselves and probably others.

I haven't heard about making a "government line" as such between the two corners. As far as slope of the face of the cantle, the way we make trees, that is not present until the bars are all shaped first, so the drawn line would be gone by then. You must just level up those two corners? What else do you measure off that line? It's got me thinking again...

Denise

PS. I don't know any other governments that are truly straight and that could be leveled out that easily either.

[daviD A Morris]

Denise,

Yep, you got it. On a finished tree, once the seat part of the tree has been shaped, the line itself doesn't actualy exist. Yes I just make the 2 end points level with the table. It just levels the vast variations in bar shapes. I know that this helps with making comparisons between different trees, because when Denis and I were at Pete Gorrel's place, Denis and Pete were trying to make comparisons between trees from 2 different makers ( Pete has a fantastic collection of trees from just about every treemaker). Because the outline of the bars varied so much, lager or smaller fan at below the cantle points in particular tips the tree to a diferent angle when it is on the bench, but may not change the angle at all when on a horse. I have found that if you jack the back of the tree up to make those two points level with table it makes your measurements more comparable, and I had the oportunity to prove it on that day. Once the tree is rawhided you have to just make an estimate of where the botom of the "V" of those mortise cuts are, but you can usually get within an eighth of an inch at each end.

Drawing will follow when my computer is up and running again. Blue flame firing out the back of the power-suply was not a good sign.

regards

dam

Denise,

"What else do I measure off that line?" I also measure the distance between the bars at the front and rear ends of that line as well as the seat length.

regards

dam