cutting trees

[bruce johnson]

Since the arena saddle discussion has kind of focused on the cutting trees, I am exploring that a little. I took a cutting tree I have on hand and set it on my two horses. This tree was made by a tree maker who had a pretty good reputation, and a fair amount of people around here built on his trees. It is a 17" seat, which is not an uncommon size for a cutting saddle. The horses are both cutting bred, although that is not their real forte. The chunkier, slightly roaned horse is a Doc's Stinger/Poco Tivio. The narrower bay is a Doc's Remedy/Rey Jay. The tree is of a vintage that a similar tree could sure be in the used saddle the non-pro buys used, or the trainer has had for a several years and hasn't broken a bar yet.

I am attaching pictures of their back profiles, then the tree on them from some different angles. Any discussion is welcome. I am not crazy about the smaller front pads, the bridging, and the contact area of the back pads. Dynamics of cinching this down and moving the horses around is enlightening to say the least. I have other trees from this maker, and they dang sure are not like this.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

In our opinion, a tree that fits like this could really hurt these horses. Overall surface area is minimal, so your PSI will be high. The bridging is very severe. But those back bar tips are what will probably hurt the horse first.

We like to see the back bar tips lift off the back a little when you have a bare tree sitting on a horse's back. If they contact like these ones do, they will indent the muscle even if you just sit in the tree. And if you get the horse to walk with weight in the saddle, those tips will be digging in with every step. That causes pain and a lot of damage.

You could look at this tree and say that because it has so little rock, the back bar tips dig in, and while the two are related, they are two separate things. You could have a tree that fits nicely through the center that has back bar tips that still dig in because there is not enough relief built into them. Or a tree with enough relief built into the back bar tips could still bridge in the middle. The "rock", or curve from front to back, is not like a rocking chair rocker. It can, and should, vary in different places, and you need to check it out all the way along.

You say that you cinched it down and moved the horses around. I would like to know what you found when you did that, both in how the tree interacted with their backs and what their reactions to it were.

[greg gomersall]

Bruce its looks like way too much bridge in both cases, at least in my opinion. As for the small pad area its not just cutting trees we see this on and it doesn't do much for weight distribution. We probably have more good tree makers at our disposal than at any other time in history but we also have some of the worst yet the average consumer hasn't got a clue in this portion of thier ride. Greg

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Another comment on the same tree, not in regard to fit for the horse, but fit for the rider. This tree is a great example of why measuring from the top of the handhole to the top of the cantle (the most common way to measure seat length) really doesn't tell you everything you want to know about room for the rider. You say this is a 17" seat, but it absolutely massive when you look at the amount of room between the fork and the front corners of the cantle where the rider's thigh goes (and has the long bars to go along with that).

This cantle appears to be about 3" tall. Mentally make it 4" tall and follow that cantle rim back in your mind's eye till it reaches that height. How much length have you added to your measurement? You now have a tree with probably a 18" or longer seat length measurement without changing anything about the bars or room for the thigh. In general, the lower the cantle, the more room you have for the rider's leg for the same seat length measurement. And it is when you order short and tall (as opposed to middle of the road 4 - 4 1/2") cantles that you can run into more problems in getting the proper amount of thigh room based on the seat length measurement. Just something to think about.

[Alan Bell]

It also appears that were a horse to gather its self it would not fill that gap! Also the way cutters gather their horses by lifting a rib ON ONE SIDE out of the way for the horse to shoot through, even the slight curve they try to set the horse in to go the other way would INCREASE the bridging on the inside thus the points would dig in deeper and HINDER the horse from doing wht the riders desire! Horses are sooooo forgiving! Cutters want the seat to be oversize so that they have room to move and for their weight to shift. Imagine the weight of a 180 pound adult sloshing around in that seat. Also, the push on the horn concentrate the momentum and weight of the rider THROUGH the saddle horn, down the swells into the bars and into the horses front legs. Not a pretty pic and I'm again feeling sorry for the horse. 2 hours loping in a 60 - 80 foot circle warming up and then serious work! Best of burden comes to mind!

Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

Every time I hear the crack of the whip!!... My blood runs cold

Bob Marley - Slave Driver

[bruce johnson]

Rod and Denise,

Even with just hand pressure, the rear points dug in. Quite a lot worse going around corners with more pressure. Pretty sure they probably didn't like it much. Good point about seat length measurements vs. thigh length measurements. Your articles should be standard issue on tree measurements should be standard issue.

Greg,

Can't agree more. Although looking at the trees from the 30s and 40s, they have been pretty well made and substantial, just designed to fit a different horse. There are probably more junky makers right now for sure. Trees for $99 on ebay, supposedly same maker as some factories are using. Saddles by Billy Shaw for $400. Yep, a lot of bottom enders making for that market. The consumer is mostly ignorant of what is happening on the bottom side of the tree. But it says QH bars on the saddle tag, they own a quarter horse, so it must fit. LOL.

Alan,

I have to agree. I tried to get my horses to flex up into the tree. didn't happen to any great extent. Also, I am not sure with where the bridging is on that tree, that a horse has all that much flex in their back usually. The only good thing is, I am pretty sure the stirrup leathers are not going to rub.

This has made me seriously consider any need for room to round into. A lot of these has been "a guy said..." or "Leddy's trees are like this..." and we just accept it. Yes these horse are doing extreme turns 20-30 times during their event, but are they filling in these areas then?? Are most of the cutting saddles built on similar trees? Mine has more rock in the bars, but haven't tried it bare bottomed on either of these horses. All in all, I look at this tree as a good example of a bad example. I have not built a cutter on this guy's trees, and this was in an inventory reduction deal from another shop that came with some others. I have 3 other trees from him. All his trees are not like this. They have larger pads, a good bar pattern, and much less bridging other than a couple inches back of the stirrup leather slot. Leather rub could be an issue there, as with other AZ bar patterns. The bottom line, is that customers could be riding trees with similar bars, and we are going to see them. The saddles I mean, the vets and chiropracters are seeing the horse.