Problem with black dye rub-off

[monkeyatakeyboard]

Hello,

I've been doing leather work for about a year now; I've stuck mostly to finishing projects with a coat of Tandy All-In-One stain.

My current project however must be black. So for a while I've been playing around with some scraps and Tandy Pro Dye. My problem (and now from what I've read - most peoples problem) is that the Dye seems to come off of the leather onto everything.

What I'm making now is a wrist cuff and It is crucial that it does not ruin any clothes, or the like, because it isn't for me.

Based on my little experience and what i've read here, the follwoing is what im planning to do to finish my band:

1) All the tooling/stamping/ect

2) One coat of black Tandy Pro Dye

3) After drying, rub with a cotton rag until I don't get black colour on the rag anymore.

4) A coat (or two?) of Satin Shene and a quick buff

5) I am going to stitch some black pig skin on the inside.

On of my scraps has been dyed black and after a few minutes of rubbing the leather doesn't give up much black anymore. However, it seems that no amount of rubbing stops the 1/8 of an inch on the sides (that is, the edges) of my scrap from leaving a thick black band on my rag. Am I just being impatient? Should I continue or is there something that needs to be done first? Or, will a coat or two of Satin Shene seal it in there?

I purchased some %100 Pure Neatsfoot Oil yesterday, and haven't had much of a chance to play with it yet. The pieces I applied it to are considerable softer now. If I wanted to include a coat of this stuff on my wristband, at which stage should I do so? How long should I let it sit (I assume overnight would be sufficient?) Where should I apply it, the grain side, flesh side, or both?

Thank you very much for your help!

I'm off to do some more experiments,

Dave

[Gregory B. Moody]

please delete this post

Edited October 7, 2006 by Gregory B. Moody

[Gregory B. Moody]

I would not suggest Neatsfoot oil on anything which will be in contact with skin or clothes.. PERIOD...

way too greasy and will keep moving around in the leather ...

If I am forced to make something black I use two coats of Dark Blue spirit dye, two coats of Black spirit dye , let dry and rub well with cotton cloth and then put several coats of NEUTRAL SHOE POLISH on it...

but basically you are attacking something which can not be gauranteed. It is always best to try to talk people out of things being black OR make them out of Finished leather which is already black....

Greg

[monkeyatakeyboard]

Thank You Greg,

I'll definatly skip the Neatsfoot oil.

How long would you wait between coats of dye, and coats of shoe polish?

Dave

[Gregory B. Moody]

As long as the previous coat is dry you can do the next one... lets say 15 minutes on spirit dye... with Neutral Shoe polish you put one coat on.... gently brush it with a clean shoe brush in all directions until it shines ....then apply the next coat and do the same thing...

Greg

[ClayB]

I would not suggest Neatsfoot oil on anything which will be in contact with skin or clothes.. PERIOD...

way too greasy and will keep moving around in the leather ...

if your neatsfoot oil is moving around in the leather, I would have to wonder how it was applied, and how much you put on? I use 100% Neatsfoot oil on different items. I rub it into the leather well with a piece of sheepskin. Let it soak in and then add more if I think it needs more. Too much is worse than not enough. If your leather is greasy, you used way to much.

I also like to use neatlac over neatsfoot oil. I have heard lots of people say not to do that but it works for me. Once the neatsfoot oil has evened out, I apply Neatlac with another piece of sheepskin. I work the Neatlac in really well too. One thing I heard a few years ago(I think from Peter Main) was to not apply another coat of Neatlac once the first coat has dried. You can apply a second coat to insure coverage, but do it before the first coat dries. I haven't had any problems with the Neatlac cracking when I do it this way.

You can still use spirit dye or oil dye after applying oil to the leather, but not after the neatlac. You can mix spirit dye in neatlac to give it color. You can also use antique after the Neatlac. That was how I was told to get the Sheridan style finish. When I have done that, I then used Tankote as the final finish.

One reason people give for not using Neatlac is that it seals the leather and then you cant go back and oil it later. I talked to a local saddle maker about that. He told me that the oil will still go in, it will just take longer. I tried it after he told me that and found he was right. But after sitting overnight, the oil did soak in. It also darkened the item quite a bit.

I am not trying to start an argument here. I just think that when it comes to working with leather, there aren't a whole lot of absolute do's or dont's. What works for me might not give the results you want. Always practice on scrap before taking the chance of ruining a project you have worked hard on.

Clay

[Gregory B. Moody]

I never use Neatsfoot oil myself.

My father only used it on saddles where the darkening effect was not a concern...( preservation at the Camp Mabry Military Museum as Austin Texas where his Horse Cavalry unit ...the 112th Cavalry has their relics ).

The warning about it ' moving around' was from an Al Stohlman book.

Once someone gets too much of it in something it would take extrodinary means to reduce its content.

Most people do not apply Neatlac with sheepskin.. they spray it from the can....and in that case if they put enough on to give them a ' shine' then in places like purse lids that bend there is considerable chance for the tiny cracking called crazing ( often several months later ) ... which just gives it a foggy look in that bend area... my father did it do my sister's purse when she was about 12... it is also possible to apply Neatlac at too cold a temperature or too high a humidity and it remain looking like it had fog in it. Added to the health risks if not sprayed outdoors and you staying upwind ... and the cheap glossy look if applied like so many do.. I just avoid it. Neutral Shoe Polish does not have those drawbacks.

Some of these things... once you are warned about them... it is a matter of " Do I want to take the chance on my project ? "

But since I have good looking projects 50 years old which still look nice.. using only semi regular application of Neutral Shoe Polish... some of the with NO signs of darkening over that period...

the question is " What advantage do you think you are getting from that Neatsfoot Oil ?

I can see it being used on working equipment in contact with horses... which will also require regular use of saddle soap and thus the replacement of the oils compromised by that process...

But aside from that I suggest that Neatsfoot oil is way overkill for regular projects...and certainly has that darkening effect over the long haul... which takes away the contrast any carving and stamping might have had to start with... thus decreasing the visual effect of all that labor and effort...

if your neatsfoot oil is moving around in the leather, I would have to wonder how it was applied, and how much you put on? I use 100% Neatsfoot oil on different items. I rub it into the leather well with a piece of sheepskin. Let it soak in and then add more if I think it needs more. Too much is worse than not enough. If your leather is greasy, you used way to much.

I also like to use neatlac over neatsfoot oil. I have heard lots of people say not to do that but it works for me. Once the neatsfoot oil has evened out, I apply Neatlac with another piece of sheepskin. I work the Neatlac in really well too. One thing I heard a few years ago(I think from Peter Main) was to not apply another coat of Neatlac once the first coat has dried. You can apply a second coat to insure coverage, but do it before the first coat dries. I haven't had any problems with the Neatlac cracking when I do it this way.

You can still use spirit dye or oil dye after applying oil to the leather, but not after the neatlac. You can mix spirit dye in neatlac to give it color. You can also use antique after the Neatlac. That was how I was told to get the Sheridan style finish. When I have done that, I then used Tankote as the final finish.

One reason people give for not using Neatlac is that it seals the leather and then you cant go back and oil it later. I talked to a local saddle maker about that. He told me that the oil will still go in, it will just take longer. I tried it after he told me that and found he was right. But after sitting overnight, the oil did soak in. It also darkened the item quite a bit.

I am not trying to start an argument here. I just think that when it comes to working with leather, there aren't a whole lot of absolute do's or dont's. What works for me might not give the results you want. Always practice on scrap before taking the chance of ruining a project you have worked hard on.

Clay

[abn]

Clay and Greg,

I'd have to agree with both of you regarding neatsfoot oil. Like Clay, I've used it (always sparingly) and it seems to do a decent job of rehydrating dyed leather and giving a nice (albeit slightly darker) color to the leather. However, Lexol's web site supports Greg's claim that neatsfoot will move around in the leather.

http://www.lexol.com/lexolnf.html

I guess readers can draw their own conclusions based on experience.

Regards, -Alex

[Gregory B. Moody]

I can't take much credit for the claim that Neatsfoot oil will move around... in a Stohlman book he uses the term " migrate"... which to me means ' go further than you wished it to go'.. like you put it on the outside of a boot...and months later you find that you get it on your socks when you wear those boots....( had this happen to me )...

About 1960 .... after my father telling me it did not dry very fast... I took a feather and dipped it into some Neatsfoot oil....and stood it upright on a shelf in the leather shop... 6 months later it was still wet to the touch...

For horse gear used outdoors it is great stuff ( but still would not put it where a rider would contact it with clothes...)

Greg

Clay and Greg,

I'd have to agree with both of you regarding neatsfoot oil. Like Clay, I've used it (always sparingly) and it seems to do a decent job of rehydrating dyed leather and giving a nice (albeit slightly darker) color to the leather. However, Lexol's web site supports Greg's claim that neatsfoot will move around in the leather.

http://www.lexol.com/lexolnf.html

I guess readers can draw their own conclusions based on experience.

Regards, -Alex

[bruce johnson]

I am still trying to see the issue with Neatsfoot oil moving around. Yes it migrates (I am glad it does), So does Lexol, so do the one step products, so does water, so does any liquid or paste that warms enough to become liquid. It migrates to lubricate all the layers of leather from top to bottom. The grain layer is denser, the flesh layer is looser (more spongier). That is why these things are used, to move around and lubricate the spaces between the fibers. If they didn't move around or migrate, that means they just stay in one spot. There is no migration, it must not soak in, because that would be migrating. Lexol sure has heck migrates, it is not the heavier feel of NF oil. Olive oil feels even lighter yet. We are just picking what liquid provides the best lubrication depending on the needs of our leather and what it will be exposed to. The needs of a saddle or boots, or anything used are different than a 50 year old picture hanging on a wall. Yep they will get dark, If that is an issue, buy a fake leather saddle, because oak tanned leather will eventually darken exposed to light - oiled or not. Just lay two sides out grain side up overlapping and watch the light change the color of the underneath piece over time. Ever get a mottled side from a distributor? It was shadowed by the piece on top of it in the stack. Lexoled leather will darken also. So will olive oil. I have not used silicon oil but it is reported to be the least darkening but will darken somewhat . There was a fad in the show horse world several years ago for very light (almost white) saddles. Silicon was the only thing recommended for them to prevent darkening, and they were used in their class and then immediately covered to prevent light-induced darkening. I was out of that loop.

If you have a problem with oils coming off on your clothes or skin, it means the leather has been saturated by top to bottom and it is coming back out. Leather is like a tight celled cellulose sponge - it really wants to hold moisture. Add moisture in some form and it becomes flexible. If you use more moisture than it needs for flexibility, it seeps back out. You have used too much. You can do this with Lexol too. Leave the saddle making lessons, and lessons on the use of neatsfoot oil and where to apply it on a saddle to the people who actually use it - saddlemakers. If it was a problem, we wouldn't be doing it.

Good point about dipping a feather in NF oil and it still being wet to the touch 6 months later. Personally I would be glad to see it wet at ten years. (BTW - it isn't. Eventually it just gets thicker and more greaselike, unitl it becomes a waxy paste). That is why it (and other oils) is used as a lubricant. It stays wet and reduces friction over time. I use Lexol too and found that the spills from it dry slowly too, and end up with a waxy type of greasy paste, but in less time than the NF oil. Water will make leather more flexible too (casing belt leather before making the buckle end fold for a common example), unfortunately it dries, and then the lubrication properties are gone. You can also use alcohol to lubricate leather. Lasts even less than water, used by shoe makers as shoe stretch. Also gone after water or alcohol are some of the fat liquors that was put into the leather at the tannery to give it some measure of flexibility before you bought it. Which is what Lexol, and other conditioners are purported to be - fat liquors. Which one you choose depends on your needs.

Regarding your boots, I think you over-oiled them. However a little detergent will take that oil right out of your socks. I think we use Cheer.

Respectfully,

Bruce Johnson

[Jim]

Dave,

A simple fix to a simple problem is to dye the outside of the wrist bands with two coats of Fiebing's Oil Dye and then seal them with Fiebing's Resolene. The photo shows a gun belt I made for a Lady in Fort Worth that was dyed and sealed in just such a way. Notice that she's wearing white denim jeans? Any rub off?

Nuff said, have fun.

[Reaper]

Thank You Greg,

I'll definatly skip the Neatsfoot oil.

How long would you wait between coats of dye, and coats of shoe polish?

Dave

mm, Dave, just started out myself but had a Saddle maker point me to "Justins Boot Cream" it can be left flat or buffed out to a lusted as you like...