acrylic paints/dyes to look good with a brush?

[Micah]

Beyond thinning with water vs straight from the bottle, does anyone have any advice on getting acrylic paints/dyes to look good with a brush? I'm using Fiebing's acrylic dyes and having particular trouble getting it to build up or go on evenly.

I am trying to paint some Japanese calligraphy on a piece of veg belly using the red acrylic over a previously dyed deep red/black background (using Fiebing's pro oil dye). I've tried building up to the color I want for the characters but it seems to be getting nowhere fast after several coats, all thinned with water (~50/50 or slightly more acrylic). Trying it straight from the bottle is not working either, it puts on a fairly solid stroke but when I try to brush it out a bit it takes it off that stroke and puts it on the new stroke instead (leaving hardly any behind on the previous). Also, I am letting each coat dry for, at the very least, 2-3 hours but more often overnight.

Does the brush material itself make a lot of difference? I bought a pack of assorted "artist brushes" and there are at least 4 types of bristles used. I've been using the ones with the finer (probably synthetic) bristles thinking they would be less likely to hold on to the paint than a coarser brush. But ultimately I think my problem has something to do with brushing technique or thinning and applying the stuff, I dunno! Help?

[ClayB]

It sounds like you are doing everything right. Once you have let the paint dry, the second application shouldn't be taking the one before off. I have never used Fiebings acrylic. Maybe you should try a different brand of acrylic paint? One thing that might help is to spray a light coat of acrylic sealer onto the leather after each coat of paint. That should keep the previous coat from coming off, but it sure shouldn't be necessary. There is also some kind of medium you can use to dilute your acrylic paints instead of water. I am not sure what it is called. Maybe that would make a difference with the brand of paint you are using. Getting paint to look good on leather is tough enough without the problems you are experiencing. I hope you figure out what the problem is.

[yaklady]

Here's your problem. You are using acrylics over an oil based dye. It will never come out evenly that way. Acrylics can only be used with more acrylics. My suggestion is that you mix a color of acrylics to match the deep red oil dye to use as the base coat, then add the other colors on top of that. I'm afraid you will have have to start over completely, from square one with your tooling. There's no way to lighten the color that is already there. You could go darker, say with black oil dye to make a shadow effect. You just can't mix the different kinds of color.

Also try going to a hobby store and getting Delta Ceramcoat acylics. They are much cheaper than Fiebing's, and the range of colors is almost endless. This brand works very well, either full strength or watered down, but I suggest you water them down so as not to hide your beautiful carving. More than one coat may be required, but it will cover if it's not over oil dye!

Hope this helps and doesn't give you a headache!

Kathy

[Micah]

thx for your help Fortunately I didn't do any carving/tooling on this piece other than a slight impression where I transferred the design on with a ball-point stylus. I've had ok results with this acrylic over the oil dye before this piece but it was limited to very, very small stuff, like thin lines (and I had better results with the white than red), but never a larger area like this, guess you can only get away with so much, LOL. thx, Kathy, for the tip on the Ceramcoat! I will look for it as I'm not ready to give up on the acrylics yet

Fortunately, I was able to remove all of the acrylic with a damp sponge and some rubbing (very small circular motions). this did degrade my black-to-red background shading a bit but I can recover that with some touch up dying. I'm going to go with black dye for the symbols this time (that's convenient too as I have a customer who wants this same look on his project). It's just a key fob I made out of scrap for myself, a testing platform really.

[Dale]

Here's your problem. You are using acrylics over an oil based dye. It will never come out evenly that way. Acrylics can only be used with more acrylics. My suggestion is that you mix a color of acrylics to match the deep red oil dye to use as the base coat, then add the other colors on top of that. I'm afraid you will have have to start over completely, from square one with your tooling. There's no way to lighten the color that is already there. You could go darker, say with black oil dye to make a shadow effect. You just can't mix the different kinds of color.

Kathy, I'd like to find some incredibly humorous way to say I disagree with you, but I got nothin'. Nevertheless, I still disagree with you. The photo below is acrylic over oil dye. Unfortunately, I also don't have a good idea as to the cause of the original problem identified. It sounds a bit like a thin paint trying to cover a waxed or sealed/polished surface. Something else seems to be amiss - have you had other difficulties with that piece of hide? I'm curious to see what everyone comes up with.

Dale

[Beaverslayer]

I would hazard a quess that it is because you are thinning the acrylic with water. If you were to use an actual acrylic paint thinner available at the local hobby store or even "Michaels", you would have better results. These thinners are specially formulated to thin the acrylic, but not change the properties, such as water is most likely doing.

Also, if you were to paint all the areas that are to be colored with a base coat of white, you will be able to get a better color on the finished surface. As color is determined by the reflection of light through the paint, with a darker base coat you will end up with a darker finish.

Ken

[Micah]

nice work, Dale! in answer to your question, no I have not yet had any difficulties with this piece of hide. but... like I said I have only done some small work on it with the acrylic, lines less than or around 1/16" wide. the calligraphy lines were to be as much as 1/4" in some places. no issues at all, on any scale, with the oil dyes or finishes either. Also, I have not applied any waxes or finishes to the leather yet, and I cleaned the surface with rubbing alcohol prior to dying but no deglazer or anything.

the bottles of acrylic say "rendered useless upon freezing". could that have been it? could they have been stored improperly at the supplier or in transit to them? I ordered them during the summer so no cold weather in sight.

[yaklady]

Hey Dale, but you work wonders with leather! I have never had success mixing acrylics and other dyes. They don't go on nicely for me, like what happened to Micah, and then they wear off quickly. It didn't surprise me that Micah had no trouble rubbing the acrylic color off. So what's your secret? I'm so sorry your humor isn't working today!

Kathy

Edited September 21, 2007 by yaklady

[ClayB]

Kathy,

You said only use acrylics over acrylics. I am not sure about using acrylic over oil dye, but I am going to give it a try. I dont see why it wouldn't work. I have used acrylics over spirit based dyes without any problems at all. If it is the oil in the dye causing problems, wouldn't a sealer over the dye before using acrylic fix that? I also don't understand why the acrylic would wash off after it is dry. I have been able to get it off with deglazer but that is yucky stuff. I still wonder if it's a problem with the paint. I use Delta Ceramacoat and Liquitex. Guess I will have to do some experimenting this weekend with paints instead of starting that fish belt. I can just tell the guy it's all Kathy's fault.

[yaklady]

Thank you Clay! I enjoy being blamed for stuff. Dale doesn't have problems with oil dyes, either. I don't know what kind of paints he uses, but you use the same thing I do. I have mixed spirit dyes and acrylics in the past, but they haven't worn well. When you're doing a picture, there is no wear to it. Maybe that's why Dale didn't have trouble. I made a CD case for my daughter, and the paint immediately started to rub off the horses that I painted.

I have never used Fiebing's acrylics. Clay, maybe you should get some Fiebing's and paint your fish belt and see if it works. If not, you can just carve another fish belt! I know how you enjoy that.

Edited September 21, 2007 by yaklady

[Micah]

thx for all the thought you're putting into this. maybe it was just an isolated incident? I will have to try it out on a different piece of leather, it might have just been the one I was using. Either way, I'm interested in checking out these Ceramcoats, for the price and selection if nothing else!

here's the finished fob, btw. removed the red acrylic (which turned out more orange anyway), and brushed on the black oil dye in its place. on the flip side, which is lined with black velvet pigsuede, there's a little pocket for a guitar pick. side note, you can see the makings of my friend's guitar strap in the background (the extension/adjustment pieces). I took this pic to show him how the black on red/black would look. certainly looks a lot better than the red acrylic did, LOL!

[Beaverslayer]

Well Micah, I think that turned out exceptionally beautiful. I realy like that color, and the white stitching is a beautiful contrast to the rest of it. Great work, and thanks for sharing.

Ken

[Dale]

Thank you Clay! I enjoy being blamed for stuff. Dale doesn't have problems with oil dyes, either. I don't know what kind of paints he uses, but you use the same thing I do. I have mixed spirit dyes and acrylics in the past, but they haven't worn well. When you're doing a picture, there is no wear to it. Maybe that's why Dale didn't have trouble. I made a CD case for my daughter, and the paint immediately started to rub off the horses that I painted.

I have never used Fiebing's acrylics. Clay, maybe you should get some Fiebing's and paint your fish belt and see if it works. If not, you can just carve another fish belt! I know how you enjoy that.

I've used several acrylics over oil dye (I don't think I ever used Cova). I've used Liquitex, but not Ceramcoat (these are what you two are using, right?).

Kathy,

I agree that acrylic doesn't wear well on the functional stuff, but it sounds like you've had a more discouraging experience than I've ever had. I'll try to take a comparison photo and post it later tonight.

[yaklady]

Hey Dale!

I was working with oil dyes and acrylics (Delta Ceramcoat) at work the other day. Thinking about what you said about them, I decided to play a little while the boss wasn't looking. On a piece of scrap leather, I applied light brown oil dye and let it dry. Then I started playing with the acrylics on top of it. I had the same problem that Micah did. The paint looked awful, and I could not get it to do what I wanted it to. You must have the magic touch if you are able to use the two together. I don't have it!

Kathy

[Leather Bum]

Has anyone been able to figure out the cause of the problem? Why can Dale get paint to work over oil dye but the Yak Killer cannot? :scratchhead:

[Dale]

Has anyone been able to figure out the cause of the problem? Why can Dale get paint to work over oil dye but the Yak Killer cannot? :scratchhead:

The only thing I could consider a possible cause is that some reds are "transparent" and require some layering to get a good look. But that doesn't fit the symptoms that were given. I think I'd have to watch the application and see the piece before I could make any reasonable assessment of what the problem is.

Dale

[TomSwede]

Another one with same problem.

Tried Covacolour white over Fiebings red oil dye and it wasn't a pretty sight. Same problems as described above.

Rubbed it off with alcohol and painted over that Fiebings oil dye with ROC gold (spiritbased) instead.

Worked like a charm, results can be seen in my AP bracer post in Show off threads.