In skirt rigging on a roping saddle.

[hidepounder]

For years and years I have advocated the use of in skirt riggings on roping saddles. While tooling at Bill Porters Saddle Shop in the late 60's, 90% of the roping saddles produced in that shop were 7/8, in skirt rigs, and these saddles were being used for Team Tying! We're talking big time abuse here....much worse than Tripping! These setups were strong and during my tenure there, I never saw a roping saddle come back with a failed rigging. Saw a few horns torn out!...but not riggings. In later years, I won a couple of conventionally rigged saddles (admittedly not the same caliber as the Porter's) and I immediately noticed how bulky they were under my legs, pushing me away from my horse.

Now days, I am constantly told that in skirt riggings are not as strong as those rigged directly to the tree. My personal experience contradicts that notion and I see a lot skirts cut away under the fenders to allow closer contact to the horse as if this was some great new revelation!

I just read a post that Tosch had, where David Genadek stated that saddles should be 5/8 rigged and never in the skirts because this defeats the purpose of the skirts! Would a roping saddle be included in this gereralization? Maybe I am uninformed and my personal experience has led to incorrect conclusions. As I am not a saddlemaker I would like to hear some opinions from some of the Pros on this subject.

Thanks,

Bob

Edited April 26, 2009 by hidepounder

[Tosch]

Hidepounder,

when you follow this link http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?s...=2913&st=20 , scroll down to my post of May 14, 2008, and open the file "David Genadek rigging position 1 .pdf" . In the second picture you will see that David G's 5/8 rigging position is what probably commonly is called a 7/8 position. Don't know whether it makes a difference but just wanted to point it out.

In this link about flat-plate riggings http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=906 also the strength of correctly constructed in-skirts has been addressed. Here http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=4210, too.

Tosch

Edited April 26, 2009 by Tosch

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Hey Bob, I have done roping saddles in flat plate , inskirt, and what I call roper rigging. In all cases if done right, and reinforced correctly, including taking the rigging over the back of the bars and lacing them together behind the cantle, and attaching the reinforcements with screws to the tree, they are all strong enough for roping and ranch work. I personally have used all three styles for my own saddles, and have cattle sorted, penned, trail road over very hilly terrane, showed, cut, and while not personally roped, (just never got the bug) have had customers that both team roped and calf roped, ( one of my customers ropes out in Oregon in competition every week for years now) with out any of them coming back for rigging problems. I use the style and designs that Al Stohlman shows in his encyclopedias. Sometimes I change the design a little, but; I always adhere to the basic design he shows, and they have served me well for many years. As for 5/8, 3/4, 7/8 or full rigging placement, I set it the way it needs to be for each individual horse that I make a saddle for. General setting for most is 7/8, unless there is a compelling reason to vary. Again, it depends on the horse.

As far as repairing saddles made by other, it seams that I either am reworking the area around the inskirt or flat plate rigged saddles in the actualy "D" area, or in conventional rigged saddles with that little strap they put between the front D and the back D. They never last.

Hope that helps!

Happy Trails!

Bondo Bob

[bruce johnson]

For years and years I have advocated the use of in skirt riggings on roping saddles. While tooling at Bill Porters Saddle Shop in the late 60's, 90% of the roping saddles produced in that shop were 7/8, in skirt rigs, and these saddles were being used for Team Tying! We're talking big time abuse here....much worse than Tripping! These setups were strong and during my tenure there, I never saw a roping saddle come back with a failed rigging. Saw a few horns torn out!...but not riggings. In later years, I won a couple of conventionally rigged saddles (admittedly not the same caliber as the Porter's) and I immediately noticed how bulky they were under my legs, pushing me away from my horse.

Now days, I am constantly told that in skirt riggings are not as strong as those rigged directly to the tree. My personal experience contradicts that notion and I see a lot skirts cut away under the fenders to allow closer contact to the horse as if this was some great new revelation!

I just read a post that Tosch had, where David Genadek stated that saddles should be 5/8 rigged and never in the skirts because this defeats the purpose of the skirts! Would a roping saddle be included in this gereralization? Maybe I am uninformed and my personal experience has led to incorrect conclusions. As I am not a saddlemaker I would like to hear some opinions from some of the Pros on this subject.

Thanks,

Bob

Bob,

I think the bias against the in-skirts has way more to do with the choice of material used than the type of rigging. Porter's did have the reputation for a stout in-skirt rigging. When production saddles cut corners and the riggings failed, the style was blamed and not the maker. After it got to be pretty common that somebody knew somebody who had a skirt rig fail, then they got the rep. It was cheaper and more production oriented to fold a strap over a dee and screw it down.

Another factor is how some of them are applied. You only need to look at some of the laughable styles of plate riggings on the Ebay specials. I can only guess the rigging plates are of the same high quality.

Close contact skirts are another good one. They cut out skirts, generally where you'd put your leg back to stick it in one, and call it close contact. Look where their fenders are when they are sitting up riding around the ring and it is generally forward of the cut and can be over the rigging where there still is full skirt. Add an underpad and "show" blanket with a tooled matching wear leather on it, and how close is your contact now?

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Bob, I agree with Bruce. It is more important to use good quality materials that will hold up with time. Once it is done right, well...it is done right. Also, I agree with Bruce on so called close contact saddles. Besides, when you are as bow-legged as I am, you need some material down there between your legs, just so you can achieve any contact! Hell, unless I am on a stout 1/4 horse, I can touch my spurs together without my legs touching the horse!

Bondo Bob

[hidepounder]

Thanks Tosch,

I hadn't seen the thread about rigging. And after reading those posts as well as the comments here I feel good about my in-skirt rigging crusade. I noticed a suggestion to combine an in skirt rigging with a cut away....I'd like to see that! And of course, leather quality is just a given as far as I'm concerned!

Bill Porter was not a saddlemaker, but after having run the floor at the old Porters before leaving the family to start his own successful shop, and because I was of an impressionable age, I never questioned the comments he made....I took them as gospel! He made quite a big deal about the strength of in-skirt riggings. I guess that was the beginning of my bias.

I also noticed, again, that the variety of opinions have regional commonality...I've always thought that intersesting! You would think cow punching customs and the rigs used would be more similar than they really are.

Thanks to all of you for responding....for me, because of my background, I suppose, the mechanics are easier to grasp than the theory. In this case my confidence is restored and my crusade continues!

Long Live Cowboys!

Bob

[mwcondit]

Ok, I am looking for the best way to put the "In Skirt" rigging in. I think it will allow more forward movement of the stirrups and less pinch on the leg. What is the best way to put it in for heavy roping saddle. There is a guy here in Oklahoma that puts cavilar into his rigs, stitched between the skirt and the filler kind of,, I think that is OVER KILL,,,,,,,,,, What is the best way?

Thanks Tosch,

I hadn't seen the thread about rigging. And after reading those posts as well as the comments here I feel good about my in-skirt rigging crusade. I noticed a suggestion to combine an in skirt rigging with a cut away....I'd like to see that! And of course, leather quality is just a given as far as I'm concerned!

Bill Porter was not a saddlemaker, but after having run the floor at the old Porters before leaving the family to start his own successful shop, and because I was of an impressionable age, I never questioned the comments he made....I took them as gospel! He made quite a big deal about the strength of in-skirt riggings. I guess that was the beginning of my bias.

I also noticed, again, that the variety of opinions have regional commonality...I've always thought that intersesting! You would think cow punching customs and the rigs used would be more similar than they really are.

Thanks to all of you for responding....for me, because of my background, I suppose, the mechanics are easier to grasp than the theory. In this case my confidence is restored and my crusade continues!

Long Live Cowboys!

Bob

[BOB BRENNER]

Don’t know if it is the best, but this how I do it.

I use a plug from a firm piece of leather the same thickness as the rigging dee and use the rigging dee as a pattern. If the rigging dee is not completely sandwiched between the inside and top plugs, the rigging dee could move and over time causing the leather and rigging to fail. Both plugs are cut oversize by around ½" at the bottom of the skirt. The top plug is skived to a feather edge, starting about ½ " from the rigging dee.

Before the in-skirt rigging can the installed the skirts have to be blocked, the center line of the rigging dee determined and marked, and trimmed to final size. The skirt plugs need to be prepared. I leave the skirt plugs ½" longer at the edge and mark the edge of the skirts and the centerline of the rigging dee.

The inside plug is glued and installed first on the skirt plug, then the rigging dee is installed, and then top plug is glued and installed insuring there is no movement of the rigging dee. Next the skirt is installed and the rivets are installed and the skirt plugs and rigging plugs are trimmed. I do not use any stitching other than the lining on the plugs, as I feel the stitching would weaken the rigging.

see the attachment for an example.

Bob,

Howard Council ( probably the top roping saddle maker) uses in-skirt rigging’s and I believe Trevor Brazile used one of his saddles at the NFR last month.

Hope this helps.

　

Bob

[JRedding]

Bob I've heard this argued my entire twenty years in the saddle trade and don't think we'll ever hear the end of it. I'm with you I grew up on an in-skirt saddle, my dad always rode them so naturally so did we. They were all Newton Bros. back then, so they were something comparable to the Porters you knew. I'll stick up for them to the end, I've team roped, calf roped, doctored, hunted, rode colts, and built a load of them myself. I don't think I'd put one of the cheap ones through what I've done with one but if well built, and of good materials, there's no weakness in the design for man nor horse.

[Saddlebag]

Bob I've had two good ropers (still have one) with inskirt rigging. As previously mentioned it's when someone starts cutting corners. I seldom see a factory made saddle with the quality of skirts that were used 30 years or more. Those older saddles were heavy and were built to last. With many of the newer saddles I see, the inskirt rigging makes me a little nervous as the leather is thinner or not of good tannage.