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neelsaddlery

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Posts posted by neelsaddlery

  1. Posted · Report reply

    Hi John,

    Even the Japanese names we know like Consew and Mitsubishi are built in China.

    Campbell Bosworth, Union, and Randall are all built/refurbished in the US. The Classic by Luberto is also made in the US. All of them absolutely great machines. I have a Campbell and a No.9 (Daddy of the Classic) both are excellent machines. Juki still makes the 441, and I know a few folks who can modify it for leatherwork. Big Adlers are sill being assembled/made in the Czech Republic and sold by Weaver.

    Anyone else chime in if you know of any.

    Art

    It was my understanding that a controlling share of Adler is now owned by a Chinese sewing machine company named Shanggong. I used to do business with Shanggong for some lightweight machines and went to visit them at their corporate offices in Shanghai about 4 years ago. This was right after the news broke that Adler had been bought by Shanggong. I had spoke with the general manager of Shanggong at that time, and they said that they planned to keep the assembly plant for the heavy machines in the Czech Republic for the time being, but that they had plans to move production of some of the lighter weight machines to China. A few years after that meeting, we heard of a joint venture in China where they were making the 267-373 in an assembly plant in China.

    My advice to people who are trying to buy a machine that is free of China influence at this point is to buy an older used machine, as you simply cannot get clear of China at all when dealing with the question of serwing machines in today's day and age.

    I know there are 3 Juki assembly plants in China, there are also many small parts manufacturers for companies like Juki, Seiko, and some others in China as well. I actually visited a factory in Shanghai that built parts for Juki overlock machines, and also spoke with an aluminum extruder in China that made the oilpans for Seiko machines.

    I do not have any way of knowing for sure (short of calling my contact at Shanggong) but I would not be a bit suprised to learn that a staggering majority of parts for Adler sewing machines are now made in China. They may still be assembled in Czech Republic, but I would bet that a lot of parts for these machines are coming from China.

    Just my two cents worth.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

    Cowboy Serwing Machines

    Oh, one more thing -- Mitsubishi sewing machines are all pretty much made by Highlead in China., Highlead is the OEM manufacturer for Mitsubishi.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

    Cowboy Sewing Machines

  2. Posted · Report reply

    I think we really need to quit pluggung each other's machines here on the forum. This is not the place to do it. We all have our own websites, and you should look at each individual dealer on the merits of price, customer service, customer satisfaction, and quality of accessories and attachments.

    Just my two cents worth.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

    Cowboy Sewing Machines

  3. Posted · Report reply

    Hello All:

    Just wanted to drop another line about what I said in my previous post. I made a comment on "character assassination" in my post made last night. This comment was NOT directed for or against any party. I got the feeling after I re-read my post that certain contributing parties to this forum might be offended by this comment, so I just wanted to provide some additional clarification on this point.

    This comment regarding "charater assassination" was made to simply express my fears as to what COULD HAPPEN if we continue to make plugs about why our machines are better than others in a public setting such as this.

    Steve Tayrien of Cobra put a post on the web forum regarding his feelings of friendship for myself and Bob Kovar. Let me go on the record as saying that I also think very highly of Steve. Steve is a good person, and I like him a lot. I have no ill feelings for him whatsoever. Steve and I talk at all of the shows we are at. I have told Steve that I wish him well with his new startup business.

    However, I really think this forum needs to maintain strict neutrality on the subject of what machine is the best choice for which consumer. I do not think pricing should be mentioned, I do not think comments should be made about who has what gorgeous needle plates and presser feet and all of that stuff. I do not think any super sales or the reasons for such sales should be posted as well. I also think we should keep phone numbers, contact information, websites, and all of that other stuff off here also. But hey, if everybody else can do it, then I will too!!!!!!

    Comments made about how to improve, maintain, modify, service, and repair all makes and models of sewing machines should be welcomed by the board. These are things that will improve any owner's experience with any machine they buy, no matter who it came from.

    This is just my two cents worth, and I do sincerely apologize if my comments offend, will offend, or have offended any party involved.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

    Cowboy Sewing Machines

  7. Posted · Report reply

    Hey Guys & Gals

    There is an easy answer to this. Cowboy & Master have had better prices and included the accessories in the deal for quite some time. Plus we SADDLERS who distribute them have been quietly working away improving them at no extra cost.

    Funny how we sat and watched the Hype going on about how good an ordinary Machine was so good. Now funny thing is another Company has got Steve so prices have tumbled. This I know the MASTER 441 sells here in Australia for $3.950 + gst. convert that to US$2.528 including all Attachements, Servo Motor, Pedestal Stand and you still have a better normal price than the so called Special price Cowboy is the same Machine, same development so check his prices out also.

    So what's it tell you? Who made the Cream from what is an ordinary, normal Clone Machine that has now got to be improved to play catch up. By the way I note that that the Special doesn't have any improvements on it yet as our have as Standard.

    Sorry to butt in like this but I am a Tradesmand who gets upset at Hype. This forum is not a Sales column as far as I'm concerned. It is a wonderful place to axchange ideas and Skils. So I've had my Blurb, now lets get on with the Show.

    Kindest Regards.

    Jim.

    Right on Jim!!!!!! First, lt me say that I am truly dismayed to see this forum get turned into such a mess. It really bothers me to see dealers slugging it out like this. We alll have products that have their own attributes. Some may be a better choice for some people than others. It is so funny to me also that there is such large mention of service, prices, and so forth from other dealers when Cowboy has been offering attachment packages and excellent customer service for years now.

    Folks, we really need to stay clear of all of the hype here and get this forum back to what it was -- a great place for the exchange of ideas and information about sewing machines. Not a dealer inquisition, or a place to defame others.

    Ryan O. Neel

    Cowboy Sewing Machine

  8. Posted · Report reply

    Hello folks:

    I am Ryan O. Neel, the co-founder and USA distributor of Cowboy Sewing Machines. We seem to be seeing a lot of talk on the forum about the new prices of the 441 short arm clones.

    Many of you may have seen my postings on this forum before, as well as Bob Kovar's and my advertisements in the major trade publications.

    The notion of this price decrease seems to be a hot topic on this forum, and so I thought I would add my two cents worth. Some of the things you have been reading about the price decrease and reasons behind them are true, and some of them are false.

    There are a lot of you on the forum who have seen Bob Kovar and I at the trade shows and bought from us, as well as posted your favorable comments on this forum regarding our products. For this I am grateful, and I do appreciate all of your kind words.

    Firstly, let me go on the record as saying that I feel that this web forum is NOT the place to discuss such items of a heavily commercial nature. There are many people here who are loyal to all three of the major dealers which contribute to this forum. This forum is a place to share the free exchange of ideas regarding machinery, their attributes and qualities, tips for operation and better performance, and so forth. I do not think it is a good place to pitch sales to prospective customers, and for dealers of machinery to carry out character assassination.

    There is indeed a price war occurring here between all of the dealers of these 441 short arm sewing machines. Everybody has either lowered their prices to the same level or attempted to offer pitches to customers in order to sway them into purchasing a machine from them. I personally do not think this forum is the place to carry on such discussions.

    As for how Cowboy plays into this price war, let me go on the record saying the following: Our machines at NOT made in the same factories overseas that either Artisan or Cobra machines are manufactured in. We DO NOT buy our needle plates, presser feet, feed dogs, or attachments from any of the same suppliers that Artisan or Cobra use. All of our accessories are made to our standards in our own factories. Our presser feet are investment cast from solid stainless steel, our needle plates are drop forged of solid stainless steel. Our shuttle hooks are titanium nitride coated, and our machines come with an extra large flywheel of our own design.

    One thing that you, as a prospective customer and buyer of a new sewing machine should be aware of, is that this price war cannot continue for long. This is my personal opinion of course, but with the buy price in China going up higher and higher everyday, it will be impossible for the "Big Three" to continue to offer these prices for long. The profit margins on the 441 short arm sewing machine have diminished to such a point that it will be impossible for any of the dealers of these machines to make money. Let's face it, as a dealer or manufacturer, or importer of sewing machines, we are running a business, and as such, we are all trying to make money.

    Just as the saddlemaker that uses our machines must make a profit to pay for his overhead, to pay for his house, to pay for his car, to provide for his family, so must we as distributors of machinery. There is a tremendous amount of preparation that must go into the sale of each machine sold. The stand and table must be set up, the motor tested and installed, the speed reducer aligned and installed, every nut, bolt, and screw in the machine head must be checked. The machine must be sewn off through many different materials to insure flawless performance, the machine head must be calibrated and adjusted. The list goes on and on

    What will be end result of this price war for the consumer? It is hard to say. Perhaps the 441 short arm sewing machine will become a "loss leader" for the big three. The emphasis will switch to other sewing machines. Maybe pressures will be put on overseas factories to reduce cost even further. Could we see a day and time when the 441 short arm will cease to exist? It is hard to say.

    All I can say for now is if you you have been remotely thinking about getting one of these machines, now is the time to buy, as either the prices or the machines will not be around for long.

    I have been importing, distributing, repairing, and servicing sewing machines for many years now, and I am well aware of what these machines cost in the overseas market. This cannot continue forever.

    What can I say about Cowboy and where we will be? I can tell you that we are well backed with firm financing, our business emphasis is not only on new machines, but also on used machines. Between Bob Kovar and I, we offer over 14,000.00 square feet of new, used, and refurbished machinery in two separate facilities.

    We sell, service, and repair all makes and models. We offer customer support, service tips, and sewing advice for all makes and models. We service and repair all competitor's machinery. Not only do we sell, service, and repair industrial models and "leather stitchers" but we sell, service, and repair all home sewing machine models. No matter the age, no matter the make.

    We have access to an expansive parts inventory not only covering all the Cowboy models, but for most all other makes and models as well.

    If any of you would like to obtain additional information about the "crisis" that is going on right now with regard to the 441 short arm clones, or would like to obtain information about Cowboy products, and where we stand in all of this, please feel free to call or e-mail me directly. I can be e-mailed at:

    neelre@comcast.net

    I can be phoned at: (330) 692-1418.

    Bob Kovar can be reached at (419) 380-8540.

    Our website address is : www.cowboysew.com

    Thank you for taking the time to read this post, and thank you to all of our loyal customers over the years.

    Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated from customers and those directly involved.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

    Cowboy Sewing Machines

  9. Posted · Report reply

    Hello all:

    As a manufacturer, dealer, and mechanic of sewing machines, I'd like to see somebody offer an introductory class on sewing machines as well. Others are correct in this forum when they say that there is a tendancy from the magazine publishers and other places to attempt to limit the contributions of manufacturers and dealers in the education of proper sewing machine operation and adjustment.

    I am not sure what the solution is to this problem. It seems like no matter which way you go, you run the risk of offending somebody.

    Ryan O. Neel

  10. Posted · Report reply

    China:

    I used to go there all of the time, and they did change the website. If my understanding is correct cuttersexchange used to be some sort of subsidiary of Singer. It was like their parts division or something. I think they consolidated it all into one website. As I recall I may have had to go direct to the Singer website and click a link there to get to the parts and manuals section. This is why I always went to cuttersexchange in the first place.

    Ryan O. Neel

  11. Posted · Report reply

    I would recommend buying a used machine that is relatively current, and one in which there are still parts readily available. I have found in the past there were many good older machines for doing the items that you described, like the Adler 105, the Adler 205-64 and many others, but it is getting harder and harder to get parts for these older machines.

    The big problem I always find with older machines is the specialty parts that you can sometimes need. A main shaft bearing, a crank or connecting rod, a special shoulder screw, or whatnot. It always seems that these machine specific parts are the first to be discontinued with the older machines, and if the manufacturer quits making them, then where do you go to get them?

    If you plan to sew heavy horse tack, get a machine that is up to the task. I would recommend an oscillating hook machine. The rotary style hook machines won't handle the heavy thread.

    I like machines like the Ferdco Pro 440 Baby Bull for sewing horse tack, as you can get these machines for relatively low cost used, and they do a plenty good enough job for this task. I am just guessing, but I think you should be able to get one of these used for around $800.00-$900.00 or so if you look around a bit. There are plenty of places that offer parts for this machine too.

    The other machines in the "step up" class will cost quite a bit more, and while they do offer a lot more in the way of features, that will come with a heavier price tag. "Step-up" machines would be the Artisan Toro 3000, the Cobra Class 3, the Cowboy Model 441 short arm (also called the 205-270 on the website) and the Ferdco Pro 2020.

    All of the above machines are based on the Juki 441 style.

    Ryan O. Neel

  12. Posted · Report reply

    With the Consew 206 and machines in the same class by different manufacturers, you will usually need to stick with threads at or less than size 138. The specs for the Consew and machines in their class say that they can run up to a size 207 thread, but I find usually you have to fuss with them to get them to run this thick of a thread. I personally feel that 207 thread is a better choice for the oscillating hook machines as opposed to rotary style hooks used in the Consew and others. I personally prefer bonded nylon as it seems to be a bit more fray resistant with regard to sewing leather items (where speed and friction can be problems).

    The poly thread that I have used in the past seems to like to fray a bit more in the heavy stitchers. Bonded nylon is used a lot in the horse tack industry, but you do see poly used quite a bit in the marine upholstery trades and also in car upholstery.

    For needles, as Art suggests, there is Schmetz, Groz Beckert, and Organ. There are also somes smaller names like Beisel and others.

    There used to be a lot more needle compnaies arounf a few years ago than there are today. I used to really like Beka needles as well as Muva needles, and they were very low cost, and worked quite well.

    For the Consew 206, you'll needle 135X16 for leather. 135X17 is the needle type used for fabric.

    Ryan O. Neel

    One more thing, you can sometimes find old Beka needle stock being sold on Ebay at different times. Like I said before, I really liked this needle for the price.

    I think you'll really like the Consew, as it is a very good machine for light to medium weight leather sewing.

  13. Posted · Report reply

    Hello All:

    For the 441 and 205 machines, the 794 needle system is the needle type that is used. I have never seen a needle in the 794 system in a LEATHER POINT that was smaller than a size 23.

    However, in FABRIC POINT they do make them a bit smaller, as I have seen a size 22 in fabric point.

    If anybody knows about leather point needles in the 794 system being offered in a size smaller than 23 in leather point, please let me know, as I would like to get some myself!!!!

    Ryan O. Neel

  14. Posted · Report reply

    Art:

    I am not sure this is accurate about the grinding of needles only on the groove side of the needle. I know that with all of the oscillating style machines that I have worked on, there is a definite difference in clearance between the needle and shuttle hook when you change the needle sizes. You could tell easily if the needle was ground asymetric by looking near the top of the needle where the shank is. You would see at that point that the needle would look "lopsided" on one side or the other if the grinding was done only on the groove side of the needle. The shank size of the needle is the same with two needles of the same needle system, regardless of size.

    Ed is correct that there are spacer rings for the 441 machines offered in varying thicknesses by the manufacturers. I have also seen spacer shims offered for the 441 machines too. They look just like the spacer ring itself, but are stamped out of much thinner shim stock.

    Also, if you look at the Adler 205, these machines come with an assortment of spacing shims with each machine sold for needles of differing thicknesses. The number of each needle size (180, 200, 230) is stamped on each shim. If the needles were ground in such a way as to compensate for the needle to shuttle clearance, then why the need for the shims in the first place?

    Just my two cents worth.

    Ryan O. Neel

    Hi All,

    Sorry to be late addressing this, but in a parapharasal of the words of Pink Floyd,

    Students, Leave Them Rings Alone!

    Needle manufacturers only make one size within a system of needle and grind it to make the smaller sizes. The process is a little different for needles for different uses, but they pretty much follow the same practice. There is a reason for this other than economic. They always grind off the groove side of the needle to make a smaller size, never the scarf side, SO THAT THE HOOK NEEDLE RELATIONSHIP STAYS THE SAME. This way the needle/hook relationship stays the same as the groove and needle diameter get smaller. Now, this needle can get only so small before running out of groove or impinging on the scarf so that it compromises the integrity and strength of the basic design. So the practical range of the 794 is 27/250 -- 23/160 that I know of, somebody said they got some 18/110 needles from Artisan for the 3000, so given that, maybe that is the new lower limit.

    The above goes for 441 clones, for the Adler clones, they provide a bunch of different spacers and I don't know why. Remember with spacers or rings, the bevel goes inside.

    If you have to mess around with spacers, you could have a problem with runout on the bobbin shaft or some other nefarious problem and you should give Steve from LMC Cobra a call or PM him here, his username is stevetayrien.

    Art

  15. Posted · Report reply

    Hi Ryan,

    I think the Chinese way of doing business will pretty much confuse any Westerner. That is why it is important to have a knowledgeable and stable importer.

    On a second item, do you know the make and model of this monster, it is 350mm high by 900mm throat, you can just about put a 366 head in the arch.

    Big_Sewing_Machine.jpg

    Thanks,

    Art

    Art:

    WOW!!!!!! That is a monster. I wonder if Solent in UK does mods like this to machines? I am not aware of any machine like this in mass production. Think it could have been stretched and raised as part of a custom mod job?

    Ryan

  16. Posted · Report reply

    Hi Ryan,

    I don't quite understand how Baojia has a patent on the 366, they copied it from Adler. Nevertheless, will the Adler parts fit in your castings? This would be a good thing as it is pretty easy to get Adler parts (other than the bank loan for purchase). The Adler 366s are pretty much a mainstay in the sail industry and are getting killed by the Euro vs. Dollar thing, although Global is doing well with their cam driven models. A good, less expensive alternative might have some traction in that market. The short arm version of the Global (ZZ-568) does well also and you have a model SM-568 that appears identical. This might be an opportunity for Cowboy as I have not seen any Sailmaster machines in the area. Then again, it is a pretty small market, but so is the leatherworking industry.

    Art

    Art:

    Yes, I know that Baojia copied the machine from Adler. However, somehow Baojia was able to improve upon the design of the machine a bit and they were able to register for and get approved for a CHINESE patent on the machine. Note that the patent that they hold is in China, not in USA or Europe. At the CISMA show last year, Highlead debuted their version of the 366 machine, which was essentially an exact copy of the Baojia version of the machine. In the months that followed, Baojia sued Highlead in China because they held a Chinese patent on the machine. I am not sure of the outcome of the suit.

    It makes little sense to me how Baojia was able to get a patent in China for the machine, since China is already a member of the WTO, and also since Adler is now owned by Shanggong, a Chinese company. However, apparently through some loophole they were able to get patent recognition through the Chinese government. Perhaps it is because the Adler patent on the machine was already expired at the time Adler was acquired by Shanggong, and consequently Adler did not register this patent with the Chinese government. Baojia simply made some changes to the design to make it a bit more unique, and then filed for Chinese patent protection.

    That is why we had to change the casting of our machine a bit. We had to get around the existing patent that Baojia had on the machine in China. China patent law is very confusing to me, and seems to be nothing like the laws we have in USA regarding patents. In the USA there would be no way we could avoid a lawsuit just by changing a few features of a casting. USA patent law allows for a wide swing in design interpretation to determine if a patent has been infringed upon. The offending item does not need to look exactly like the original, just vauguely similar, and has to violate 1 or more of the claims made in the original patent. China patent law seems to be quite different.

    Also, I have heard from several sources in China that Adler buys their 366 machine from an importer in Holland, who buys them from Baojia then modifies them a bit. Hence, the Adler version of the machine is basically a beefed up version of the Baojia machine. However, I do not know if this is accurate or not. I would estimate that Adler sells fewer than 10 of these 366 machines per year now.

    Baojia sells about 200 sets of their 366 machine per year to the worldwide market. We sell much less, but are trying to grow the market a bit more by offering the machine for a lower price.

    Most of our parts will interchange with the Adler version. However, a small percentage of parts will not. Mainly things like the main shafts, shuttle shafts, and feeder shafts below the machine and so forth, as our machine has 1 inch more of throat clearance than the original Adler or Baojia copy.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

  17. Posted · Report reply

    Hello Ryan,Your SM 366-76-12HA machine that you market under the Sailmaster name is the same machine that Baojia markets as the BJ 366-76-12HA. It looks identical. If yours is significantly different, why use their numbers? Ditto the CB0318, a spitting image of a Highlead. I am going to have to take you at your word that your machines are different. Does Cowboy have an ISO-9002 certification?I know China is the penultimate world of knockoffs, even amongst themselves, however this is not a bad thing (by their standards of business), but it is looked on skeptically here. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as long as the quality remains high and there are no patent problems. This is why I specify ISO-9002 manufacturers, it just shows the company is committed to the quality principal.In the last 15 years Chinese (mainland) castings have gone from remarkably so-so to actually very acceptable, right up there with Taiwan, paint has improved also. Give me an American casting any day, German and Italian next, but China is not only improving, they have arrived and produce an acceptable product. The parts inside sewing machines, especially low run number industrial ones, can and do come from every and any corner of the world. This is another reason to copy existing designs, there are just more high quality parts available. While we are discussing how things have changed, we should discuss motors. I have a couple of Chinese (mainland) motors from around 15 years ago. These things were truly a study in ancient motor design, I'm sure Tesla had something to do with them, they had mechanical phase changers (to lead the phase in the starting process) and other old stuff that a modern engineering grad wouldn't have a clue to what was going on (thank God I'm old), but they did work. The new stuff is very modern and in my use pretty reliable, like most electrical equipment, if you have a problem it will happen early and it is usually a complete failure.What does all this mean? From a manufacturing standpoint, China has arrived, actually they have been here for about 10 or so years. I'm sure you can find Chinese crap out there, but generally these companies don't survive. In prior times, you bought Chinese gear to fill a slot on a line with the knowledge it would likely need replacing in a year or two, maybe less. This is an acceptable strategy for some startups. Now you can buy Chinese machines that can be expected to last for a decade or two or three. So I don't buy it that Chinese machines are junk anymore, but I definitely want to know who made them. I have a Highlead (or 3) that I have tortured making specialized blankets and pads, sewing nasty fabric like Nomex, Kevlar, carbon fiber, asbestos, and turnout cloth. I have been all over the Highlead machines looking for wear and have not found it, if it would have occurred, that application would have done it. I have also worked with the Baojia machines in a sailmaking setting, these machines are used heavily and in the zigzag mode a lot and here again, not much in the wear category. All the big machines, Highlead and Baojia were direct drive (no speed reducers) with 3/4 and 1hp clutch motors, so these machines were not treated daintily. So I know Highlead/Artisan and Baojia make decent machines. I purchased a Juki based Ferdco and a Taiwan based Ferdco 2000 from a manufacturer. These machines were about 10-15 years old when I bought them and had been in daily production for years (webbing and leather). These machines were in very good shape mechanically, the Taiwan model needed paint, and the Juki was very dirty, but these machines cleaned-up well and didn't need anything except new motors (they were 3 phase). So we can also add Juki and whoever in Taiwan made the other one, but ultimately Ferdco to the list.I have no affiliation with Singer, Pfaff, Adler, Artisan, Ferdco, Baojia, or any other equipment maker, and opinions are based on using and abusing, maintaining and repairing these machines, and yes, I do buy oil by the 5 gallon pail.If anyone else is unaffiliated and in a production setting, has bought a machine out of a production environment, or has any way to observe machines that are heavily used, your experiences would be a helpful addition to our knowledge here.Art
    Art:You are correct that our machines are very similar to the Baojia model as well as the Highlead Model. They do look very similar. However, Our 366 model casting is 1 inch longer than the Baojia model 366, and there are also some additional holes in our casting which were placed there in order to aid in the assembly process.Baojia actually holds a Chinese patent on the 366 machine, so in order to get around it, we had to change the machine so that it did not have the original design of the Baojia model. I am not an authority on Chinese patent law, but Bill Jiang assures me that by making some changes in the dimension of the casting, there has been a loophole created.The Model 0318 machine that we offer does look identical to the model offered by Highlead as well. However, there are many manufacturers of this machine in China at present. Highlead is one of the more visible makers of the machine, but I can count at least half a dozen other makers of the machine off the top of my head. Some of the makers that come to mind are China Gemsy, China Louke, Tenjoy brands, China Zoje, Baoma, and a few others. We are just another maker of the machine on top of a list of many. However, Highlead does a lot of advertsing in the USA and has a more visible website than the other smaller makers.We don't make all of our machines in our factory, but we do make a good bit of them. Our big sellers are the 441 clone machines, which we do produce. We do make the 366 model in our factory as well, but truthfully the market for them in USA is quite limited. My partner (Bill Jiang) does sell a lot of these machines in the international market. We also make the 0318 machines, as well as the Model 243 machines. There are also others which we do produce.Our factory does carry ISO 9002 certification, but I tend not to judge so much about how good a factory is solely on whether or not they have the ISO 9002 certification or not. As you may know, China has its own administrative branch of the ISO rules and regulations, and I sometimes find that they can be more lax in their interpretation of these regulations when compared to other countries. The ISO 9002 and previous ISO 9001 certifications are relatively easy for any manufacturer to get in China, provided they pay the registration fees and demonstrate a minimum set of quality control standards. I tend to look more towards overal fit and finish of the completed product, and how well it stands up to abuse of everyday sewing.If you look at our website photo of the 366 machine, I do believe that this machine is actually a photo of the Baojia Model 366 machine. However, as Bill Jiang explained in a previous post, prior to 3 years ago we were buying these machines from other factories.I will ask Bill to update the website with the photo of the new 366 machine that we offer, and see if he can send me some photos of it and I will post some here for others to view.Hope this clears it up some.Kindest Regards,Ryan O. NeelNeel's Saddlery and Harness
    Ryan, I bought one of your Model 5 machines from another board member awhile back an I must say I am very pleased with it. Do you have a catalog of accessories for this machine? Still learning to use it and would like more info on attachments and such but am at a loss as to where to get stuff like a thinner foot or single sided, to get closer stitch lines on holsters etc. Thanks Jordan
    Jordan:Yes, we do have some attachments and so forth available for the Model 5 machine, such as slide plate and a material guide, as well as a roller foot, and also a narrow leather presser foot and a left toe foot. You can visit our website to get my information, and give me a call if you like. I am not sure I can post my phone number here, and I don't want to make a commercial enterprise out of this good website.Kindest Regards,Ryan O. NeelNeel's Saddlery and Harness

  18. Posted · Report reply

    525brwn:

    The major non-chinese sewing machine manufacturers such as Adler, Pfaff, Juki, and Seiko do indeed have patent protection in most industrialized nations of the world. Since China has joined the World Trade Organization, she has been forced to adhere more closely to the laws pertaining to intellectual property rights as well as international trade.

    For leather stitchers such as the 441 and 205, the main market is in the United States. Juki and Adler both have intellectual property rights here as well as in many other countries. It is fair to assume that Juki and Adler would have exercised their intellectual property rights to stop the import of all the USA clone machines if they still held current patents.

    There is a lot of counterfeit stuff made in China, and yes there are infractions pertaining to patents and intellectual property rights. However, not too many of these infractions pertain to sewing machines, and also infractions for all imported items are declining since China joined the WTO.

    Thank you for your input.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

  19. Posted · Report reply

    525brwn:

    Your comments on the China based sewing machine manufacturers are indeed correct. They do in fact copy already proven designs and offer them at much lower prices than the original machines. However, just like other major US sellers of sewing machines (Consew, Artisan, Tacony, Econosew, and many others) have found out, that is a wonderful thing. The prices that these copied machines can be sold for are much less than the original makers price, and the quality of the machines are to within 90-95 percent of the original.

    Once the patent on the the original machine has expired, it becomes free game for the open market to copy and reproduce. This has already happened with the Juki 441 and the Adler 205. The patents have expired, and now it is free game for the open market.

    However, this also forces the original makers of the machine to get innovative, and not just sit back on their laurels. It forces them to make new designs for even better and more trouble free sewing machines. It also forces them to cut costs and offer a superior quality product. Then China steps in again, and knocks off the original at a much cheaper price and comes very close with regard to quality. Then its back to the drawing board for the original maker. Indeed it is a viscious cycle. But, he net result for the end user is that they are getting a much better product, both from China and original manufacturer, than they did ten years ago.

    That said, even the big name makers like Juki and Adler have been unable to avoide the greatly reduced costs of manufacture in China. To my knowledge, Juki has three assembly plants in China. Adler has been bought out by Chinese government owned sewing machine manufacturer named Shanggong Group. Seiko has many parts manufacturers in China. Pfaff also has resorted to building some of their sewing machines in China, first through a joint venture enterprise with China Zoje and now in their own China based factory. It is impossible to avoid the long arms of China even when you are buying that Adler, Pfaff, Juki, or Seiko machine.

    China now dominates about 95 percent of world sewing machine production, if not more.

    I would love to see sewing machine production come back to the USA, but it simply cannot happen. The costs to make the machines would be so great nobody could afford it.

    In any event, this is just my 2 cents worth!!!!!

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

  20. Posted · Report reply

    Hello All:

    I have been seeing a lot of talking about the Cowboy Brand Sewing Machines on the forum. This is good to see people talking about the products we sell. There also seems to be a lot of speculation as to the origin of the machines that we sell. I want to set the record straight so that there is no miscommunication with regard to this matter.

    Cowboy machines are not manufactured in the Shanghai Huigong Number 3 sewing machine factory, nor are we connected with Highlead Brand sewing machines in any way. The Sailmaster 366 machines which we sell are also not manufactured by Baojia company. However, Baojia does manufacture their own version of the 366 machine, but ours is not from their factory.

    If you look closely at the castings of both the 441 machine and 366 machines that we sell, you will see that they are in fact different from the machines offered by both Baojia and Highlead.

    One thing to remember is that so many similar machines are made by so many different manufacturers in Asia that I even find myself getting confused from time to time on where certain machines are made!!!!!

    Cowboy Sewing Machines is a joint venture enterprise between Neel's Saddlery and Harness (that's me) and New Century Holding Group in China (that is Mr. Bill Jiang). I do a lot of the engineering work and design improvements on the machines that we sell. I also find ways to reduce the costs of manufacture and still deliver a superior quality product. And, I also try to come up with some new ideas from time to time that other folks have not done in the past. These are few and far between -- but occassionally I do come up with some good ones!!!!!

    We have appointed Bob Kovar (Toledo Sewing Machine) in Toledo, Ohio as the sole licensed user of the Cowboy brand name. He is the only one that sells the machines under the name of Cowboy. Many of you who have gone to the trade shows have seen me and Bob at the Cowboy booth selling Cowboy brand machines. (I am the big ugly bald guy, and everybody knows who Bob Kovar is!!!!)

    I also sell the machines under my own brand name which is Neel's Saddlery -- many of you may have seen me selling machines on Ebay, as it is my primary venue for selling machines. Anything that comes from me is branded Neel's Saddlery. Anything that comes from Bob Kovar at Toledo Sewing Machines is branded Cowboy.

    The partnership between myself and Mr. Bill Jiang has existed for a long time now. Bill has extensive experience in the sewing machine business in Asia and has worked for several big name manufacturers over there. I used to order machines from some of those manufacturers and that is how Bill and I got to know each other. Eventually we decided to strike out on our own, and that is Cowboy Sewing Machines got started.

    The vast majority of the products we sell are made either specifically by us in our own manufacturing facility, or made to our specifications by certain strategic partners with which we cooperate.

    The reason why we have our own manufacturing facilities in China is simple -- cost and quality. We can better control our quality and also have the advantage of cutting out a manufacturer's markup on certain machines.

    Mr. Bill Jiang is correct in his assertion that we do manufacture the vast majority of our machines. We do not make all of them, but we do make an awful lot of them in our own facilites. If you look at some of the small differences in our machines versus other makers like Highlead and Baojia, you can see that the castings are in fact different.

    In any event, I do hope this sheds some light on the questions about who we are and what we make. If anybody has any additional questions, please feel free to let me know. I do not visit this forum often, but please post any questions that you might have, and I will answer them ASAP.

    Kindest Regards,

    Ryan O. Neel

    Neel's Saddlery and Harness

    Cowboy Sewing Machine

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