SITTINGUPHIGH1

The Billy Cook saddle is a wood/hide tree. I've looked at those before. I agree the right rear inside of the bar is were the rub mark is coming from. A few things could be causing that. The rear part of the bar doesn't have enought angle on them. So all the pressure is on the inside of the bar. Your wither pocket is to wide for that saddle. So that is causing a saddle to sit to high in the front. There by causing a bridge in the center of the saddle. That would cause to much pressure on the rear part on the saddle tree. And the rear bars could be to close for your horse. All these problem would show up more when running then walking. You may give him a brake from running for a away. See if the hair grows back. Changing the pad may help the problem not be as bad. It's hard to tell in a picture. That's just my opinion. I would bring your horse and saddle to the nearest qualified saddle maker and let him look at it. After seeing it he may have some suggustions. In the end you may have to get a saddle tree made to fit your horse correctly. And then get a saddle maker to do the rest. I had a problem with my Billy Cook. My horse grew to big for it. It's three things that cause back problems the horse, saddle or the rider. Here is a interesting article to read about saddle problems. Saddle Fit by Dusty Johnson Mort

Couple people have told me they feel Wickett & Craig is to dry and dulls there cutting edges. Wicker & Craig doesn't tool as good also. Were Hermann Oaks has more oil in it and easer to tool. Lets have some opinions on this? Thanks Mort

I was told that black leather shirting doesn't last as long. That the die weakens the leather. Do you find this is true or false?

Yes Denise is right find were the spots compare to the saddle. Were on the saddle the spots are. The center spot seems like it could be the back part of the saddle tree bar. It looks like the spot is bigger on the right side. What lead does your horse favor? I can't see the other spots. Again see if the saddle tree is bridging is important. If you are bridging your have to much wieght on the rear of the bar. Just a note it may be rubbing only when your horse is running and trotting.

I agree with you Margaux.

Common sence went out when we relected the people who created this economic problem. Maybe all leather goods should be rated X.

Good point Dam. Things to concider when getting a saddle. Walking shoes or long distance running shoes. Trail running shoes or pavement running shoe. They make them all. Most people never get out of walking shoe. I had sandles made for my feet years ago. They made the out side shape of my foot and the arch to fit my feet. The rest was done by the special rubber they used that with in weeks shaped to my feet. The most comfortable feet ware I ever had. Funny thing I had broke my lower right leg 2 years ago. Now the sandle hurts my right foot to ware it. Things change over time. That's a good question Margaux. If I was building a saddle tree to a horse type and didn't have a templete to follow. Would I have to compensate for the leather, sheep skin and pad. Lets say at least a inch or 2. I would think it would effect the wither pocket the most. RANDD. I can see your point on the saddle tree. No pressure points on the saddle tree. I notice the top bottom part of the saddle tree bars are not cupped like the horses back. Just the wither pocket. The fact that the horse is moving a cupped tree bar bottom would make two pressure points on the outside edges. Trying to get a balance between fit and no pressure point is the job. Would you say the angles of the bar should stay in sink with the horses back? Mort

Joanne You may be right. This may be a change in the horse. The way he moves or his back changing. It's hard to see his loins well. But what I can see is his loins look very muscled up. If this is something that just has devolved recently this my be your problem. You did say the rear shirt is raised up. Try setting the saddle on him without any pading. This may tell you more. You have to make sure were the sores are coming from the rear tree or shirt. I would check the whole saddle out. Make sure the saddle bars are touching from front to back. If the saddle tree is bridging in the middle that could cause some problems. Or the bars may be to long for his muscled up loins. Once you find the problem then you can work on the fix. Mort

I hope your party went will Alan. Cheers.

Yes Greg horses do change as weight changes and there age. That brings up one of the problems with classical western saddle. There to unflexiable to these changes. I don't think the flexiable tree is the answer. Nether is padding up a horse. I feel a some kind of flexiable padding under the sheep skin may solve that problem. It would be finding the right meterial. Althought if a horse changes to much you have to change the saddle tree. Having saddles that the saddle tree can be changed fairly easy would be a plus. Threw my studies I have found very few people have taken the time as I have to learn about the horse and the saddle. There is very little information out there. You have to piece it together your self. The more I have learned the more I see to learn and discover. Never ending.

Well Steve my horse for one thing drops his rear when I put the saddle on. My horse gets sores on the beginning of the wither down on the sides. Right pass the wither pocket. I know the saddle is sitting in the right spot. The tree doesn't have a good cup to it and the bar is way to strait. The angle is to sharp on the bar also. I am making a new templet because he grew again. So his back has changed again. I hope he stops growing. He is about 5 1/2 years old. As soon as I as do I will post it. I think so far it's the best way to see if a saddle will fit your horse. If you buying off the rack. My saddle did fit him tell he grew from 15.3 to 16.2. I ride what I call endurance/trail. 8 to 10 hours a day. Sometimes three days strait. I do mountian rides that climb to 11,000 feet or more. Then I do endurance rides that I trott and run with my horse. He gets ridden at least three time a week at home about 3 to 8 hours at one ride. The thing I found threw my testing is and observing others. Most saddles don't fit the horse. Most of those are factory production. You have to get lucky or not ride more then 2 hours a week. Poor horses.

Nice rough out.

Looks great. Do you do ths for a business? Or a hobbie.

Nice looking saddle. How long did it take you to make it? Mort

I agree with you doing a wood and raw hide tree. It would start me off on the right track. It's funny I wasn't looking to build a tree and saddle. But I was looking for a good saddle for my horse. And found out most the factory saddle and some custom built ones didn't fit my horse at all. I had to build a custom templet of his back out for plexiglass to find this out. My horse is a very fine looking animal nothing that different. He is a performance horse. Strong and agile. Just a bigger horse then the normal about 16.2. Just a lot of bad saddle out there. When you ride hard and long there is no getting around not having a good saddle.

Does this sound about right. Low end Sounds like you have the factory production saddle trees. Low end. Fast. Not a even construction from side by side. Hide and stitching can be rough. Not good for laying leather on. Looks not so good. Very inexpensive. May fit your horse or not. A gamble at best. Weeks to make it. Cost about 70 to 150. Hadly and fox Steele Saddle Tree Baite's custome saddle tree Bowden Brand Mid end Custom factory production. Can get a good looking saddle tree. Petty close to what you want. Good hide cover. Mostly even can be a little rough sometimes. Looks like a month or two to make. Cost 250 to 350. Timberline Saddle tree Quality Mfg. Inc High end You get it your way. All even. Great hide cover all smooth. Hand fitted to your horse if you want. Great looking saddle tree. Time factor is from 6 months to a year. If you can get on there list. Cost is about 550 Dollars. Bill Bean Rick Reed Rod and Denise Please add people or comments to the list or let me know if I'm off.

Hey people lets hear your opinion on Timerline and Quality Mfg saddle trees. Give the good and bad points of these saddle trees. I have seen some of you use these saddle trees before.

RND thank you for your insite on saddle trees. And the rest for you guys and gals. I feel a open forum is great place to hear new and old things. What works and new ideas.

No not at all Alan. I was just confused because of the terminology used. Breed and body type of horses. How many body types of horses are there? As RND says no one has categories for them. It's Double Diamond Equine opinion that you can't fit a saddle tree to a breed and expect it to fit all of that breed. Like quarter horse saddle trees. Or Arabians saddle trees. I think that is what RND is saying also. Alan if history and science has taught us any thing. There is always a better ways. Some times it comes slow and sometimes it comes fast. If not we would still be living in caves. And be hunter and gatherers. But these changes has to be tested. It took Einstian about 30 years for someone to prove his work. It took Einstian more then 10 years to come up with some of his ideas. I'm sure you do somethings different then you were taught. Because it works better for you that way. As you can see I like to be a innovator not a copyer. But I do like to learn from the past. How do you know were your going unless you know were you have been.

OK who am I talking to Rod or Denise? Then having a casting of a horse's back to work with would create a better fit. As long as you make the appropriate adjustments to the bar. Like flaring the edges. You hear so many people talk about quarter horse bars, Arabian bars and mule bars. It sounds like you take every horse differently. And as you said fit the body type. That's what Double Diamond Equine has also found out using the there pressure pad system. Here is a good question. What do you measure on the horse to get the body type? So would you change the fit of the tree depending on the riding discipline?

Now guys don't hold back. Tell what you really feel about H&F trees. LOL I guess when your raised on champagne beer just doesn't measure up. Is it the looks. Or the fit. Or the construction. That you guys dislike about H&F Saddle trees. And that a under statement. I only have seen one in a picture. It looked a little odd.

Do Hadlock & Fox Saddle trees fit well and have good strength?

I can see that would be a lot easer once you found a pattern to a type horse breed Rod. You set a templet up for lets say a quarter horse and use the same bars for all quarter horses. Rod if you have a request for a endurance or barrel saddle tree. Do you make the saddle tree fit the horse different?

I have seen so far two kinds of suspension saddles. One is the tropper saddles. I have read they come from the English army saddles. The canadians army used them also. Then there is the Amish saddles. I don't know if they use the same type of western saddle trees. I wondered how different the seat construction is. It seems to look at little different on the outside. Here are some pictures. One is the Amish saddle maker Herny Miller. The other one is by Tarpin Hill. The tropper saddle is by Christie Enterprises. I ride in a ranch saddle myself. But am always looking for new ideas. I know the endurance and trail riders like these saddles. I do feel the ranch saddles take more abuse. But I have heard these saddles are very comfortable and easy on you and your horse. The weight factor is a big difference. I don't know if the horse can really feel the difference. I think the people can lifting the saddle up on the horse. Something someone told me when I was young that stuck with me. Master one discipline within your craft and understand the rest.