SITTINGUPHIGH1

I know what you saying David. If a pressure pad is affordable and can be proven reliable I think it would be worth it. No misunderstanding a improper fit there. I was told by the owner of Double Diamond Equine that the industrial standard were wrong about saddle trees. That fitting a tree by type was not correct all the time. It seemed that each horse was different. A quarter horse tree sometimes fits a Arabian good and vias versa. As far as flexibility of a saddle. I feel your right that ever think technically flexes. Even steel. But it is so slit you could see it. I wonder if a wood tree covered with bull hide would flex with enough movement that you could see it ether. For that matter would fiberglass or carbon fiber. I guess it would depend on the thickness of the cover maybe. That is a good question. In the picture Rod had of the hide tree and the picture of the carbon fiber that was ran over by the truck it didn't look like ether one flexed enough to see. Well I guess he was comparing apples to apples. But the point I think was that carbon fiber is strong enough material to use for saddle trees. Some people say reinventing the wheel is thinking out side the box. Trying to improve on the past. I'm sure you have done that yourself. Well Rod what I meant about Einstein was we use mathematics as a tool to use gravity. A lot of people don't know Newton's mathematics on gravity is flawed. Using Newton's mathematics the orbit on Venus is incorrect. If you use Einstein's general relativity mathematics you can get a correct answer. Enough on science. Well I'm not saying any one from the forum would ever do this. But to say it is the horse after spending 3500.00 on a saddle. Could be a good excuse for a poor fitting saddle. The public does know what a good fitting saddle is. Just that it hurts there horse or not. Besides it would be a shame not to be able to get a saddle that fits a horse just because it doesn't fit into the normal horse category. I understand what you are say Rod with regards to adjusting the bar for movement of the horse. With flaring out the edges of the bars not to dig into to the horse. Some people arch the middle of the bar to make room for running with a horse. This is done to make up for the slit arch the horse makes while running and going up and down hills. Thanks for your imput. I'm sure I will be making different kinds trees. Depending on the discipline and preference. It's all trying to keep a balance. Mort

A lot of nice people on this forum. A lot of knowlege to go with that. I enjoy your honesty and your opinions. Always much to learn. New ideas to hear. I feel it is aways a balance of a good product, at a reasonable cost and in a timely matter. I think if your in business you always have to look at these things. I feel innovation is something you should always strive for. Wether you use hide, fiberglass or carbon fiber. I agree with Rod you still have to deal with making the saddle tree fit the rider and horse. But the important thing is does it work. As for what I am reading and seeing here Rod's saddle trees work well. But I hear the good fiberglass covered trees work well to. I feel workmanship is the key no matter how you make them. Should you make the saddle tree to fit just one horse or to make the saddle tree in a general way to try to fit more horse types. That is a good question. I would think if you have the same type horses in your stock no problem. If you have different types of horses your going to have a problem. Switching saddles on different size horses and different breeds of horses would create problems. I read that's why the U.S Calvery breed horses with the same conformation. I would think Rod could shed some light on this subject. I can see this subject in a sore spot in this forum. I hope no one takes it to personal. Tell I did some research I always connected fiberglass and carbon fiber with planes and boats.

You have a point there Greg. If I can make a good product with less time and cost. I may end with a waiting list like everyone else. But I guess I would feel better helping more people out. Here is a lady that uses the mapping system in her business. She says it is working well. http://www.doublediamondequine.com/Saddle%20Fitting.asp Well Greg I find people who ride only a hour or two a week don't know there hurting there horse. If your riding 10 to 20 hours a week is another story. You real need a good saddle for that kind for riding. There are a few things that can effect a saddle fit. One Is the rider, Two is the saddle tree. Three is the saddle maker. Four is the horse. If you can't get a casting of the horses back you can't guarantee the fit. And that's all you can guarantee the fit. At least if the fit is right the owner can look at the other things that can effect the horse. But I guess I'm not into mediocrity. After reading Rod and Denise's web site I can see there not ether. Yes I agree with what you saying Rod. I don't like the saddle tree configuration. I like the western saddle bar fit. The saddle trees this company is making has a Australian feel to them. As far as the Orthoflex panels I think the idea is correct within correct physics. But there application I don't like. I came up with the same conclusions you did Rod. The lady that runs Double Diamond equine came up with the same conclusions as we did using the pressure mapping system. High pressure points moving all around the Orthoflex panels. You right Rod the problem is coming up with a way to fit the horse. Same old problem. I feel carbon fiber and construction foam could give you more options to play with then wood and hide trees. The result could be a lighter, stronger, quicker made and affordable way to make a saddle tree. It's like buying off the rack suit or a custom tailored suit. Maybe something in the middle will work. Have a off the rack suit tailored. Is that kind of what you do Rod? I hear a lot of working cowboys are starting to buy saddles with saddle trees with fiberglass covering. Bret from Hadly and Fox told me he did pull tests with the wooden horn on the hide and fiberglass saddle trees. The hide took 2500 pounds and the fiberglass took 3300 pounds before breaking. Interesting. Rod how many working cowboys or endurance riders have used your saddle trees? How are they work for them? Like Einstein said Genius is 5 percent inspiration and 95 percent perspiration. Yes that's me Alan reinventing the wheel. Thanks. I'm in good company. Like Einstein did with gravity. Sorry Newton. Cheap is not the word Alan. Affordable is. If it wasn't for Ford we wouldn't be able to afford cars. The pressure maps have blue tooth now. You can walk, trot and run around the arena while watching the pressure on the horse. If perfection is a road and not a destination. Then Perfection is making the saddle so it can change with slit pressures differences put on it by the rider. The problem is not that the changing pressure on the horse. It is two much pressure on one spot. At least that is my look on it. Alan carbon fiber is just a different type of material to use for a covering. Planes were first made wood and paper once. Then aluminum was used. Now carbon fiber is being used. Function has to impartial. Now if it is art you want that a different story. That is a personal thing. As far as flipping over one side of the bar to make use as the top. You don't sit on the bars. You make a seat to sit on. So that wouldn't be a problem. Of coarse you real don't have to do that. You can just rap the carbon fiber over the top of the bar.

By the way my name is Mort Stevenson. Just throwing some ideas around. I know this stuff may be old hat to this forum. Sorry if I going over old stuff.

The saddle tree in the picture has a light wieght foam inside it. You can use nails and screws with them very well. So the saddle maker tells me. He uses them in all his saddles. I don't know if they sale saddle trees. I think they only sale there saddles. http://www.american-saddles.de/english/karbon.html The pressure testing pads have been used in the medical profession a while. They used them for many reasons but one is to help people in wheel chairs. But they haven't been that good to use with horses. They are a lot better now and use blue tooth. I am looking into the cost of buying one. I think that will be the future for custom saddles and trees. I agree that the problem is going to be making a custom fit to the horse. But just a thought. Lets say you make a casting of your horses back. Then build a mold on the casting for the bottom of the bars. You can do it with carbon fiber or a liquid foam. You could ever make two casting in carbon fiber on each side and flip it over for the top of the bars. The inside of coarse could be construction foam or liquid contruction foam. Well as far reshaping a saddle tree. If the bar needs to be changed. If you have a medical pressure pad it will tell you were the pressure is to much. There are different ways to do the change. One is to build up the bottom of the bar were need with leather. The other way would be to attach a shape hard pad to the bottom of the bar. Or you can also adjust a hard pad to make up the difference. I don't know if that would work that well. Know I been researching and working on this for a while. I been using my experance as a cabnet maker, tool and die maker. I have used my knowelge of horse movements, kineslogy and biomechanics. It's a pasion of mine. While as far as the economy. It's going to be a long one. Maybe 5 to 10 year before it gets better. So I think offering a good product that doesn't take so long and is affordable. That's the sale person in me. For one the suspension saddles seems like a good idea. Less work and comfortable at least that what I heard and read. The fact is the pressure on the horse is even out threw this kind of seat. The amish and the canadian troops use these kind of saddles. http://tarpinhill.net/history/index.html Don't get me wrong I like toughness and stability of the ranch saddles a lot. But I see a need for this kind of saddle. I ride a lot of miles, up and down hills, running and trotting. I know a lot of people that ride hard. All have had custom saddles and store bought ones. It alway ends up being a hunt for a saddle that fits. Buying and selling tell in happens. One endurance rider I know said the best saddle she has is a 350.00 saddle. She said the custom one she had made hurts her horse. I also have probems with my horse and saddles. Tried a lot of different types. Finally made a skeleton templet of my horses back. And found out factory saddles did fit my horse. As far as screwing and nailing into a carbon fiber tree you have to use the right resin and caron fiber. The foam if used to form the base inside has to be the right stuff you can nail and screw into. To tell you the true I like working with wood, hide and leather. I have done cooper, steel, silver, gold metal work also. I'm learning a lot about saddle making and saddle tree making threw this forum. This forum has a lot of great saddle and tree makers on it. With a lot of experance and knowlege. Hopefully I can blend the new with the old. Right now I'm still at the point were I keep coming up with more questions. How could this be done or that be done to make it work better. LOL

Ha ha funny. Just putting a different point of view. Always keep a open mind. I always try to look at things from the person eyes. People shouldn't have to wait a year for a good saddle tree or saddle that fits there horse. Would you not want to ride your horse for a year because you were waiting for a saddle or a saddle tree? I think there should be a quicker way but correct way to get a saddle tree and saddle. Maybe nothing fancy but it works. Not everyone can afford a expensive saddle and saddle tree ether. I'm always looking for better and faster ways to do things. Like a new thing coming out is a pressure pad that can measure the pressure on the horse's back from the saddle tree. I think that will change the way saddles and saddle trees are made in the furture.

I like a my furniture wood not plastic. I like the idea of a all natural saddle tree. But if I need a tool to do a job give me a strong and long lasting tool. We use to not ride in a saddle. All bare back. Should we go back to riding bare back? But you have to become impartial with progress. Carbon fiber is the strongest, more durable, cuts done on labor cost. The prices on carbon fiber are now reasonable. The important thing is can you make it fit the rider and horse. I think you can. One way is to make a tree out of wood or a light material and use carbon fiber to cover it. Problem with saddles is the horses changes. So you have a choice buy a new saddle every time the horse changes. Or modify the tree. Or replace the tree. Some times you can modify the tree. If you can't then replacing the tree is a must. Making the saddle easer to tear down and put back together would help to. The old mountain man saddles were very simple. Easy to fix and light. Another way is to make the bars with carbon fiber from a casting. I think less labor cost and fits the horse right. Saddle and saddle tree making used to be a craft. Now a days it has turn into more of a art form. Which is not a bad thing. I do alot of miles on my horse. So function comes first. The way of science is to test something. To take it to the limits. This gives you a idea how strong something is. As far as saddle tree are conceded. A horse can wieght from 900 to No matter what way you build your saddle trees what matters is materials and how you build it. Strength, longevity, fit and looks.

I like a my furnature wood not plastic. But if I need a tool to do a job give me a strong and long lasting tool. I like the all natural feel of things. But what works the best has to come into play. We use to not ride in a saddle. All bare back. Should we go back to riding bare back? But you have to become impartial with progress. Carbon fiber is the strongest, more durable, cuts done on labor cost. The important thing is can you make it fit the rider and horse. I think you can. One way is to make a tree out of wood or a light material and use carbon fiber to cover it. Problem with saddles is the horses changes. So you have a choice buy a new saddle every time the horse changes. Or modify the tree. Or replace the tree. Some times you can modify the tree. If you can't then replacing the tree is a must. Making the saddle easer to tear down and put back together would help to. The old mountian man saddles were very simple. Easy to fix and light. Another way is to make the bars with carbon fiber from a casting. I think less labor cost and fits the horse right.

I have heard people at this forum and out side give both opinions. I don't like flex trees because they move to much. I don't like fiber glass and carbon fiber saddle trees because they don't move. I have read and talked to custom saddle makers say it shouldn't move. I would think a good hide covered saddle tree isn't going to move.

Alot of questions come up with this test. At least for me. Should saddle trees move or not? On this forum and others I have read both opinions. People don't like flex trees because they move. Then people don't like fiber glass or carbon fiber cause they don't move. The construction on the inside of the carbon fiber saddle trees are made of a type of foam. You can nail and screw into them. Pound for pound Carbon fiber is strong them hide or fiber glass. There is no doubt. Just look at the figures and tests in the science world. Carbon fiber and fiber glass in water proof, easer to cover, less labor intensive. I like the hide covered trees myself. But you have to become impartial with progress. There never used to to saddle trees at one time. The horses were ridden bare back. Should we go back to riding bare? One thing never changes. You have to buld it right with the right materials and the right way. Hide, fiber glass or fiber carbon. Things you need. Fit the horse, fit the rider, strength, longivaty. And people today weight is a factor.

Here is the site I found the carbon fiber tree in Rod http://www.american-saddles.de/english/karbon.html Check it out. let me know what you think. It's good to see the classic saddle tree can hold up to a strength test.

This is a test of the strength of a carbon fiber and a hide saddle tree. The hide tree is from large and old saddle tree manufactor in the United States. The strongest tree they make. Not sure what company. I think it may even have fiberglass underneath the hide. I think this is a full carbon fiber tree. No wood underneath. Ether way it is impressive. The carbon fiber saddle tree doesn't move. 60 to 80 % lighter then hide covered wooden trees.