theres a site you can go to ,,,,,, with only one sample of my fathers work ,,,,,look up cliff ketchum and add saddle maker ,,,,,,,,, and mervyn ringlreo ,,,,,,, worked at the porters saddlery an arizona ,,,,,, my father opened the san fernando valley saddle shop sometime just after the world war two ,,, ran the shop up until 1967 ,,,, all so head up to calabasas saddlery and ask for dave thornbary ,,,,, he leaned from mervyn ringlero ,,, have a good one patrick ketchum