the number of gun and knife accessories

[russell]

Very interesting and heated replies as i expected.

we had to have them to kick the british out of here

[katsass]

I know i am going to get slammed for this post and it is not my intention to offend anyone, but i am totally blown away by the number of gun and knife accessories on leatherworker. I can appreciate the beautiful workmanship, but coming from a country where it is illegal to own a gun or carry a knife, i find it hard to comprehend the interest in these weapons. Last year we had only about 100 gunshot homicides in the whole country from a population of 20,000,000 people. I know this is a sensitive issue with a lot of people, but i am glad we have a no gun law in Australia.

OK... i am ready....fire away!!

Leatheroo, The origins of our two Countries is vastly different. Ours was started by stong willed, independent individuals that voluntarily migrated to this "new land". They needed firearms to put meat on the table and protect themselves from the indigenous peoples from whom they took the same meat that those people felt was theirs, and interloped on the land which they inhabited. Later men needed firearms to fend off French, British, and Spanish individuals that were determined to seize the land and natural resources that the earlier settlers had worked, fought, died for and, in turn, had seized from the earlier indigenous peoples. Later yet, our forefathers needed firearms to become independent from an imperialistic British ruler that felt that he could tax, command and subjugate a people and a land of which he had no understanding. Beyond that, firearms were needed as the narrow band of occupied land was expanded eastward and southward into the territories of other indigenous peoples and lands 'claimed' by other governments.This land was won and kept by virtue of the gun. This is the way of the history of the world.........the stronger overrun, ultimately intermingle and/or subjugate and take from the weaker. Example? The Norsemen (Normans) took England didn't they? Aussie 'settlers' took the land from your indigenous peoples, didn't they? To us, much of this is recent history........the last battle with the Mohave Indians was in 1906 at a location not 40 miles from where I now live. When I became a law enforcement officer in 1969, I walked the same halls, in the same building that Wyatt Earp did only 90 years before me.

Your Country was, on the other hand, 'settled' by individuals that were (to put it kindly) removed from polite society by a ruler, empowered by 'Royal' birth. Your Country remained under the authority of the King/Queen for a prolonged period of time. The 'Crown' had long ago outlawed the private ownership of firearms by the masses..........to preclude rebellion! Your current government is based upon the British model, and in many ways, it, and your citizens, live in that shadow.

Our government was designed to be a democratic republic, with checks and balances. In it's inception our founders recognized the usefulness of a tool, ie. the firearm. Our Constitution guarantees us the right to keep and bear such a tool. Our people hunt, target shoot, collect, and yes, keep firearms for protection. Our grandfathers were brought up with guns, as were many of our fathers. We have lived with guns, either actually or figuratively, all of our lives. We live with the memories of our forefathers that settled new land and of the famous and infamous that used a gun out of necessity or greed. Those that were infamous, we know, were defeated........usually with a gun. Ownership of firearms is our history, our culture...and our Constitutional RIGHT. JMHO Mike

[jc3persons]

What i am trying to understand wolve is why do you feel the need to own guns? Are you a target shooter or hunter? Or do you feel the need to own guns for personal protection?

hi leatheroo.....been a gunner since 12 years old,65 now,,,and need has 0, zilch anything to do with why i own guns,,,i own because i like them just like you like tatoos which i don't care for at all...They are a source of pleasure,, a tool,,,nice to look at and fun to play with....you use them responsibly like any other tool in any phase of life...

And if you hadn't read or heard any head line news these days,,you need to get out from under the rocks....Grandma takes fatal bullet to save grandchild,,,,bad guys escape from arizona prison and murder elderly couple camped in new mexico and on and on!!!!

And if i am dressed with my jeans on you can bet your life i will have a knife of some kind in the pocket or a legal size in a sheath on the belt,,may need to test the steak on the grill,,cut a toothpick or cut a string so yard girl can hang somthing from the tree in yard,,and on and on,,and 50% of the time a pistol or revolver stuck in belt line behind the back.

It is all about personal choice ..live and let live!!!

[JLSleather]

we had to have them to kick the british out of here

Then we used the same guns to slaughter the native americans - including women and children - who were in the way of the "progress" of us civiilized folks.

I grew up with guns since I was a boy. I hunted a lot of critters. But I haven't owned a gun of any type for almost 30 years. And, I admit that I have never had anyone reaping and pillaging around here - even with no guns.

I don't have a problem with guns, either. My wife (who is a Kiwi and also from where handguns are banned) and I BOTH appreciate the craftsmanship of a good holster, and enjoy the art work involved even if we don't like a particular holster.

But the TRUTH is, us caucasian folks aren't Americans at all ... really just 10th generation European immigrants. Yes, even the ones in Texas. Anybody who thinks that isn't true shouldn't have a problem with the children born in THIS country to "illegal aliens" being called Americans. To borrow someone else's words ... stong willed, independent individuals that voluntarily migrated to this "new land".

Edited August 16, 2010 by JLSleather

[Denster]

Interesting thread. Hadn't seen it before. Learned a few things. I wasn't aware that Australia had sunk to the same level as the Brits with their insane equal force rule regarding self defense. Makes you wonder how much force a woman being raped is allowed to use?

An observation on gun control laws. Once you have laws prohibiting criminals from possesing firearms and prohibiting the criminal missuse of firearms anything beyond that should be called Law Abiding Citizen Control Laws, because law abiding citizens are the only ones who will obey them.

[JWGlover]

If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns. Nuff said

[BAD HIDE]

Ah, the gun debate.

Guns are fine and dandy, but if you don't have a badge, you do not need to be carrying one.

I'm in Chicago, where the murder rate per capita is 3 times higher than NYC or LA. Our super corrupt city government, led by Mayor Daley, is scrambling to instigate more gun control after their 25 year old handgun ban was shot down in court. How well did that ban work? Violent crime rates for 18-25 in the southside are higher than casualty rates of soldiers from the southside currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's safer for those kids to go to war than stay home. It's not all bad, it's very neighborhood based, and some are great places to live. I live in Humboldt Park, it had an entire show on A&E's Gangland. It's changed a lot since then, but it's still not a super great safe place to live. I've lived here 5 years, and have heard "my friend just got mugged" stories and seen cop cars fly past with the disco lights on, but I've never actually even seen a violent crime since moving here. If you're afraid of crime, stop watching the news - if it bleeds it leads, and they never say anything about the millions of other people who made it home safe and sound.

I carry a legal knife almost all the time, because knives are useful. Guns when not in use are just big chunks of metal strapped to your hip. Violent crime isn't like the movies, a mugger isn't gonna stand 5 ft in front of you and tell you to give them your money. He's gonna come at you from behind with 2 other guys, and before you know he's there, he's gonna hit you upside the head with a bat. If you're lucky, you'll wake up in a few minutes with empty pockets, if not, you'll wake up in the hospital or morgue - people every year are killed in just this fashion. For women, they'll most likely just grab your bag, shove you hard and run - and now your gun is running away from you. The chance that you'll be able to draw your weapon and use it are slimmer than getting it taken from you by force or stolen out of your home - and now it's in the hands of a criminal to use it against you or someone else. If you've got a loaded firearm in your home, you're statistically vastly more likely to put a bullet in yourself, your kids or loved ones than a legitimate intruder.

The real problems aren't guns - that's why gun control or bans don't work - it's what drives people to use them. Criminals aren't just born, they're looking for drug money or things to sell, or their gang leaders put them up to it. There's plenty of cities that have lots of guns, but low crime rates. Maybe, and I'm going out on a limb here, figure out better employment and standard of living and people won't be killing each other over gang feuds, cars or wallets.

If you carry a gun out of fear something's gonna happen to you, then you're probably not ever going to be in that situation or have time or be able to use it. Common sense on how you dress, where you're going, and even the attitude of your walk is a better weapon then a gun. If you're carrying to be the hero and save me from being hurt or robbed, please keep it holstered because I don't want to get shot. Regular people don't need to carry, I've met enough crazy, drunk and angry "regular" people. If regular people get into an honest fight, I don't want to worry about getting killed in the crossfire because some schmuck can't hold his own in a bar fight.

Guns are great fun, I've grown up using BB guns and 22's. Trap shoots every Sunday, deer hunting every fall. I own several. But in my opinion, keep it home, unloaded and locked up when not headed to the range. I'll gladly make holsters for range day, and for all the days in between, I'll gladly make you a wallet with a revolvers on the front.

Edited August 17, 2010 by BAD HIDE

[JohnBarton]

Someone else already said it, "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Guns exist and preventing people from legally owning them only makes it so that the criminals have guns. The way it should be is that if you are caught with a gun that you are not legally registered for then you go away for life. Make the penalty so severe that it's a major deterrent.

I personally don't like guns or any other weapons where people can kill me from a safe distance away. But I am foolish to deny their existence.

The right to bear arms is enshrined in the American culture precisely because the British made it illegal to own guns (actually they outlawed militias) in order to control the population. So our founding fathers wrote it into our constitution that each state could have militias and the federal government could not ever take away that right. Subsequent to that is to maintain a ready militia each citizen should keep arms at the ready should they be called to serve the militia.

So the right to bear arms in the USA is in fact for our own defense against any government which seeks to overstep the governance that that is allowed to it by the people themselves.

Nothing against Australia but I can certainly understand a country which was colonized by criminals would end up with a ban on guns.

I can certainly see that having a ban on guns would diminish the amount of crimes of passion involving guns significantly. It's a lot harder to murder someone with a gun when you don't have one or easy access to one. That alone is a deterrent.

We do have a gun problem in the USA but it's not with the law abiding people who own guns.

As for knives?

Come one Leatheroo, a person from Australia can't be against knives :-)

[Denster]

Do not have a gun for self defense because you are incapable of defending yourself and it will only be used against you. Well if you believe yourself incompetent to defend yourself and choose to be a victim that is certainly your right. However you have absoloutely no right to make that choice for anyone else. It is an absolute fact that average citizens successfully defend themselves from violent predators thousands of times a year in this Country. It is also an absolute fact that States that have concealed carry laws have seen a significant decrease in violent crime rates while those that do not have seen an increase

The old saw that"when seconds count the police are only minutes away" is absolutely true. That from a 35 year law enforcement veteran.

Register all guns then if someone is caught with an unregistered gun you can penalize them severly. That ideology accepts that it is perfectly OK to impinge on the freedoms of the law abiding to attempt to control the criminal element. Most states put the responsibility for crime where it lies, with the criminal. It's one degree of offense, say robbery, while unarmed. A more serious offense if you are armed and if you are armed with a firearm it is the more serious offense plus a separate offense for using a firearm.

[funnygirl62221]

I understand where u are coming from Leatheroo. It has crossed my mind how ironic it is to see such beautiful craftsmanship associated with violence. I am sure that some people who create dark or negative images are expressing their inner pain. I believe guns for protection are a result of fearfulness that is created or encouraged by our media.

Edited August 17, 2010 by funnygirl62221

[cem]

Does everyone realise this thread is nearly three years old and most thought that it had been swallowed up by the big forum crash awhile back, I certaintly did and was surprised to see it back. Leatheroo has probably found out all the info she wanted to know by now and has moved on. I think everyone just needs to accept although we both speak english, Australia and the US have different cultures and just leave it at that. All us Aussies are worried about at the moment is which idiot is going to be running the country for the next three to four years (ha ha my partner has to vote on his birthday).

[BAD HIDE]

Yeah, I know it's old, but I haven't been here that long and gun control laws are a very hot topic depending on where you live. I have no idea what laws there are in Austraila, but in the past two decades here, and especially after 9-11, have seen 31 states flip from no carry to permitting carry either completely unrestricted or with a license. Only two state governments left that do not allow citizens to carry at all - Wisconsin and Illinois, and a bunch of cities have extra restrictions and bans in effect. We're not really answering the OP anymore, but more or less just getting up on our soapboxes and speaking out to anyone who is listening. As leatherworkers, holsters and belts are part of our business, so like it or not, it effects us. It's one of those topics that will always resurface so we can beat the dead horse a few more times just for the hell of it.

[hivemind]

I stand by the statement that an armed society is a polite society. Throughout history, most people have been armed - it is only the last couple hundred years where this has changed significantly. In the 1800's, most people had a rifle on their horse or on the backboard of their carriage. In the 1600's, everyone carried a dagger, and people of any social status whatsoever also carried swords. These were duelling swords, specifically designed and carried to make people be polite. This goes back throughout history. The first thing any tyrannical regime wants to do is disarm the population. Look how hard the Northern Irish are fighting to keep their weapons as part of a peace agreement there, and I don't blame them. As soon as there's proof they're disarmed, they'll get screwed.

I'm not just speaking from personal belief. I have read on this. Before you retort, go look at information available about the rates of violent gun-related crime in the UK before and after they enacted their draconian gun laws. Then go examine the information available about crime rates in Switzerland for the same years. Note the disparity. Then see that Switzerland not only encourages gun ownership, but after each male citizen serves his mandatory time in their military, he takes his military issue semiautomatic rifle home.

I put forward Kennesaw, Georgia as an example.

http://www.homesurfer.com/crimereports-2004/view/crime_report.cfm?state=GA&area=Kennesaw

http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Kennesaw&state=GA

Hell, just do some reading here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=crime+statistics+kennesaw+georgia

This town experienced rapid population growth in the 80's, and with it, an commensurate increase in violent (and other) crime.

The town enacted a novel solution: a law requiring all households to have a gun (with certain exceptions).

Now, their crime rates are lower than both the national average and the Georgia state average by a significant amount:

1981 (Year prior to Gun Ordinance)

Population: 5,242

Burglaries: 54

Total Part 1 Crimes: 228

1982 (Year Gun Ordinance Passed)

Population: 5,308 (+1% )

Burglaries : 35 ( -35%)

Total Part 1 Crimes: 165 ( -27%)

1998 (Compared to 1981)

Population: 19,000 ( +275%)

Burglaries: 36 (-33%)

Total Part 1 Crimes 227(+0%)

There you have it. Ipso facto, we need more guns, not less.

[Jacko P]

This may be an old thread but I'm a new member and it's particularly relevant for me. You might notice in my profile I have an interest in Archery and Lever Rifles and being an Aussie I am deeply affected by a political knee jerk decision to satisfy an ill informed society's fears. I'm not going to go into a political rant - don't despair, the last political word is that Bows or Firearms are nothing more than a tool, they are inanimate and it is the responsibility of the user to do so correctly.

My interest in Leather Craft is directly connected to my enjoyment of my Archery and Firearms. I have the skills to make every item of a primitive Archer / Bowhunters equipment from natural materials. I reload my own cartridges and cast my own bullets. It was only a natural extension of these skills to make Leather accessories that not only function as intended but are beautiful , well to my eye anyhow. Since childhood I have also been developing my skills as a Hunter, I am able to supply meat for myself and my family. I am honest enough that on occasion I do my own killing instead of paying for someone else to it it all the time. This skill has also supplied me on occasion with the raw materials to make my own Leather, more often my own Rawhide for use in the construction of my Primitive archery tackle.

Some folks in society see these skills and the tools required as redundant. I see myself as a self reliant individual gathering and passing on these skills to the next generation as they have been for millennium.

regards Jacko