taking the leap into collars

[LAPat]

Hi

I've been making split braided leashes for a while, and am taking the leap into collars. I work at a pet store where I can easily have a custom business but I am also a dog trainer so I am paranoid about the strength of my products.

I made a few pieces for people, including a leather martigale, with Tandy rapid rivets which I trimmed with a bolt cutter but I have no idea how strong they are, or really what makes a rivet strong and if there is literally a weight strength for rivets. In my idea of heaven I could find a rivet tutorial that explained the difference between jiffy and rapid rivets, tubular rivets, and are they called pound to fit rivets? I've been using a little anvil but should I go to tubular rivets and a hand press? WHich do people use or prefer? And what do people set rivets with? I've seen metal hammers and mauls and rawhide mallets.. I'm probably only going to make ten or twenty collars a month, I don't need a big production set up.

Is sewing stronger than riveting? I mean, what makes a join strong? the number of points of connection? The flatness of the connection? The strenght of the connector? And where is the stress on a regular collar? If I put the dee ring on the end, isn't that going to be stronger than if I put it behind the keeper? So many questions, so little physics background.

Ah, and where can I get rivets? Weaver? Ohio Travel? is one better than the other?

Thanks for any help anyone can give. I'm always asking questions on this board and haven't been able to offer much back, but hopefully one day I will.

Best

LA Pat

[Michael Sheldon]

Sewing vs. Rivets isn't cut and dried. My personal feeling is that properly done, sewing is stronger, especially in cases where the force is applied such that the pieces are being pulled directly apart. In lateral/shear forces, rivets will perform almost as well as proper stitching. A lot has to do with the amount of contact surface, length of stitching, and number of rivets. Good hand-stitching will be the strongest join in almost all cases.

Properly done, the right rivets are up to the job. Most of the collars I have done over the past six years have been riveted using tube rivets. I haven't had a single one sent back for a rivet failure.

That said, my personal opinion is that Jiffy rivets and rapid rivets are suitable only for non-strength bearing pieces and as something to fill rattles. Tubular rivets are far stronger. Properly peened copper or brass belt rivets are even stronger.

The big advantage to rivets is that they are cheaper, faster, and easier to put in. A decent rivet press will run around $50, and the rivets themselves are dirt cheap. Whereas sewing either means hand-sewing, or purchasing a machine capable of dealing with heavy leather. Sewing does look nicer, and IMO does have the overall strength advantage though.

I get all my rivets through Weaver.

[LAPat]

Thank you Michael for your help

I am thinking of buying one of those arbor presses that is adapted for leather work if I need it, or do you set your rivets with a hammer? For now I am going to machine or hand sewing but I like the idea of rivets. I've been researching on the forum and am assuming a force fit cap is what I want to go with tubular rivets, and some sort of nipper.

Best

LA PAt

[Michael Sheldon]

For tubular rivets, a Rex riveter runs around $50. That's what I use. You can hammer them, but it gets old really fast, and the press is cheap.

No nippers are needed, you buy the rivets in the proper length for the material, they come in lengths from 4/16" to 10/16". Because I work with several different material thicknesses, I have separate bins for the various lengths I need. One of the nice things about tubular rivets is that they punch their own holes, just put the pieces in the press, and push the handle, the rivet cuts cleanly through the leather.

If you are using caps, the cap has a splash anvil built into it to spread the end of the rivet inside the cap. If not using caps, the anvil on the press splashes the end out and back into the leather.

Weaver carries tubular rivets in solid brass, nickel plated brass, brass plated steel, nickel plated steel, copper and stainless steel. They carry caps in nickel plated steel, nickel plated brass, solid brass and brass plated steel.

[Billsotx]

Pat,

As an ol' K9 officer I suggest D-ring on the end and both rivets and stitching is the only way to go if you're looking for ultimate strength. Ray Allen K9 products sets the standards and a picture is worth a thousand words. Check here and see if that helps. Mike's covered some of the tools and supplies very well. I always used burr rivets. The may not look as good but I know that I put them in right and that they are strong.

later ~Bill

[Michael Sheldon]

Agreed, burr/belt rivets are the strongest rivets for leatherwork. And for the ultimate strength, rivet, then sew.

I've got a couple of pieces I do where I rivet them first to hold everything in place, then hand-sew.

When using belt rivets (they're called that, because they were used for making leather machinery belts), I always use a doming tool on the head. That little extra touch makes a very utilitarian-looking rivet into a decorative touch. The heads were designed to be flush with the leather surface so they wouldn't interfere with the machinery. But they look better domed.

Belt rivets are solid copper or brass. You punch the holes, push the rivet through from the "good" side, then push a burr (washer) over the rivet shaft with a setting tool. Then you cut the rivet off just above the burr with heavy nippers, then peen the shaft over. A ball-peen hammer works best IMO, but almost any hammer will do the trick. The setting tool can then be used again to smooth the peened end neatly. If you have a doming tool, you then flip the piece over, and smartly hit the doming tool over the rivet head to make it domed. Not much you can do to dress up the burr side, but anyone looking at it will know it's on there for good.

[LAPat]

Thank you guys again. I really appreciate all the information. My background is in remote collar training so I have seen a lot of powerful dogs and that's why I take what I'm doing seriously, although I'm really in a fashion market. Actually there is something about doing a really serious collar for good little dogs... it's not their fault that they aren't always with people that respect what a dog is made of. But I digress...

Because I work in a "green" store I am also working on collars that are recycled belts and so on. There are some nice old things out there that can be transformed into new things with a little work. Hopefully I will be able to show some stuff when I get this all together, but I have a long way to go to put all the pieces together. I still have a hard time slicking edges well enough to be satified with them, and I have to start figuring out what I want to line and what I don't. In the meantime, thank you so much. You have no idea how much I appreciate this forum.

Best

LA Pat

[Billsotx]

I got lost for a few days ... lol ... On your edge finishing you mention recycling things. If it's chrome tanned leather it does not burnish well so don't fault yourself there. Neither will it tool or stamp well. You can usually tell if it's chrome tanned by examining a cut raw edge - look for a bluish or grayish color line. Dye or liquid dressing is probably you best bet with chrome tanned, unless it's something you can do a French or rolled edge on - probably Not! on the collars and leashes you're wanting. There's also re-tanned leather but I've never messed with that. As far as burnishing veg tan leather you can do it by hand and there are some tools that will help. I was taught to use either a piece of brown paper sack or a piece of canvas (sailcloth and be careful if it's been dyed you might get color streaks you don't want) - white is what I try to find. My wife threw out a canvas shopping bag, probably came from Walmart or Target and you know the garbage man didn't get it ... lol! If you want nice rounded edges on your collars and leashes get a round bottom edger. You can use sandpaper or a sander. If you use a sander of any sort, dremel etc. note that you can burn the edges and you may not want the dark streak - then you might like that if you don't go overboard. Start with a coarse grit say 220 and work up to as fine as you want. 2000 grit wet or dry replaces the canvas rub rag or piece of brown sack so there's less junk in your toolbox. Moisture content is key to burnishing and it's an empirical thing. Practice on some of the scrap you cut away or write-off a couple of good straps and get a handle on what you're doing in that area. You can use dye or stain or water for the moisture content - it's casing - and use either paraffin or beeswax. There's so particular order wax first or case first (dampen) I've tried both ways. I usually moisted first and then rub (sand) a bit and don't wax until it's getting a nice burn to it. How well it burnishes depends on the leather, it'll vary, the moisture content, the method or implement you use. If you can afford tools there are a bunch of them out there and I've seen stuff on the forum I haven't seen before. Search for burnish and or edge, edging, etc. and you'll find more. If I have a bunch to do I have a hardwood dowel shaped burnisher I chuck in my drill press. It has various size grooves for dressing up light or heavy leather. It has a steel shank so it's pretty hardy. Again you can burn edges with these things if you're not careful. I'd like to see some of what you're working on so don't be bashful. talk later ......