Website of Tree Maker Rod Nikkel

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

I just wanted to let everyone know about the new website of my Tree Maker Rod Nikkel. I havent been around the boards very long so I have not seen much on saddle trees. The only discussion I have read about is factory Trees. I feel that factory trees have their place, in factory saddles, custom saddles need to be made by custom makers by hand not with duplicators and cnc machines. That is my feelings and now I will get off my soap box. Anyway here is their website http://www3.telus.net/nikkelsaddletrees

Some other great tree makers are Warren Wright and Bill Bean just to name a few others. There are some other custom saddlemakers out there that make their own trees, but not for resale that is why I did not name them.

[bruce johnson]

Snakehorse,

Thanks for posting that link. It is handier for me than thumbing through the back issues of LCSJ to find part of the articles that they had a few years ago, plus the website has some additions. Well worth reading again.

Bruce Johnson

[David Genadek]

I have read through Mr. Nikkel's site and must say it is on of the most eloquent stating of the current paradigm for building trees, I have heard to date. Although he is very much in line with the same backward thinking that the rest of the tree makers are using. His explanation of fitting the horse clearly shows why the industry is in the state it is in. The three main points where he is way off are the twist, rock and orientation.

Lets start with twist. Anyone that has looked at a sampling of horses cannot deny that twist is a major factor. The idea that you can have one twist and adjust it through the gullet to fit a range of horses is preposterous. If the range of angle change wither to rib cage were consistent then you could accomplish what he is saying by altering the angles of the arches. Unfortunately both the range and rate of change differ dramatically. I have attached tracing of two backs and super imposed one on top the other to demonstrate this point. So why do the tree makers persist in this absurd notion? Because building and creating the complex shape is no small feat. In order to accommodate different fronts and cantles it is necessary to create common surfaces. These surfaces are important and changing the twist alters them. For the tree industry to acknowledge the reality of twist would mean a mass proliferation of patterns and it would add many layers of complexity to the ordering process and their organizational structure.

Point two, is rock, yes rock does change significantly but there is a direct relationship between twist and rock. When this relationship is ignored we start micro fitting and instead of fitting the horse’s actual shape we are then fitting a moment in time and subjecting our work to the influence of the rider, ferrier, dentist, and bit maker. You can only get an accurate assessment of the rock if you consider the how well the horses ring of muscles is being used, you should never fit a tree to a horse who is being ridden upside down meaning the rider is tightening the top line and stretching the underline. When those factors are included you will find there is a limited amount rocks needed.

Point three is orientation, which is perhaps the most misunderstood element of tree construction. Mr. Nikkel states that there should be a ½†difference in the spread in the front of the saddle to the rear. The rear being narrower. He does state that this is how he does it. In this statement he is essentially telling you that none of his trees will fit a real horse. Horse’s bodies have a horizontal orientation, unlike us; their spine is horizontal to sea level. Because of this they can be horizontal to differing degrees and it is the job of the tree to be the exact opposite orientation of the horse in order to level the saddle seat. A horse’s orientation can be found by locating the base of the neck and comparing it to the point of hip. The only time you would ever want the spread of the bars to be narrower in the rear would be if you had a horse that was up hill oriented. I personally have never seen a horse with this conformation. Gaited horses have a close to level conformation and most Quarter horses have a down hill conformation. There fore no tree made should have a narrower spread in the rear.

I don’t mean to pick on Mr. Nikkel here because it looks like he is doing a better job and making a bigger effort to understand what he is doing than most. I very much commend his efforts in explaining leg based sizing versus seat size, as this absolutely should be the standard we work off of. My point is that our lively hood depends on the trees we use and in the end we are the ones that take the flack from the customer. As saddle makers we need to start pushing the tree makers to a new paradigm that will give us an advantage in the market place.

David Genadek

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

David,

Can I ask what trees you are using and can you post pictures. Also I read about your experance with leather, but what is you history with horses, example riding and handling. From you post I know you are very opinioniated and I am not trying to start anything I just want to know where you are coming from with your comments. Thank you

Ashley

[David Genadek]

Ashley,

I make my own trees. I work with a 3d designer on creating the shapes. Our bar profiles are created by modeling a sampling of backs in the computer. We pull the profiles from real backs and then add the space we need for movement. We cut our parts on a five Axis router.

I do not consider myself a horseman but I try to learn what I need to know from the best people I can find.

My Anatomy and biomechanics back ground come primarly from Deb Bennett PHDEquinestudies.org My primary influance in regard to rider position has come from Peggy Cummings Peggycummings.com I have been influenced by many horseman Harry Whitney HarryWhitney.com, Mark Rashid MarkRashid.com but my heaviest influence in regard to horseman ship has been my better half Liz Graves LizGraves.com My opinions are hard won and very defendable so I don't mind challanges in he least .

David Genadek

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

David,

First off I am not intending to challenge your ideas, I just try to ask questions so I might be a better saddle maker. In my shop If someone came into my shop and asked to for me to build a saddle fit to one horse I would try to change their mind about that, and try to get them to get the saddle built to fit the body style of their horse, do you do this or do want to build to just one horse and have that saddle only fit that horse and if you do what age do you recommend this to be done?

This is my reasoning. when I worked for a cutting horse trainer we kept 70 head of horses in the barn which rotated on a regular basis, I had to ride about 10 horses a day and I only could afford to have one or two saddles. So I had them made so they fit all the horses that I had to ride and not just one. In my experance people do not own the same horse though out thier lives and a saddle is an investment that they do keep a long part of their lives. that is why I do not recommend to fit a saddle to only one horse. What are your thoughts on this or anyone elses.

Ashley

[bruce johnson]

Ashley,

I am going to bite, and play the devil's advocate a little here. If someone came into my shop and wanted a saddle to fit one horse, I would do it (although it hasn't happened yet). Reason being - that is what separates us from Stateline, National Roper's Supply, the feedstore, and everyone else. In other words, that is the very definition of "custom". If that horse is pretty far out of the norm, and I was pretty sure that saddle would not fit many others, I would tell them that. But I still feel if they want to ride THAT (emphasis not shouting) horse, there is no reason not to order a tree to fit that horse. No reason to make that horse go in something he is not fitted for, if that is what the owner wants. We do it for the topside of the saddle everytime, why not do it for the horse? Bespoke shoe and boot makers do this fitting as a matter of course, and don't concern themselves with the owner's economics. That said, I realize that many owner's are limited by economics, and may not get every bell and whistle saddle option on an oddball treed saddle. They may feel that they could get $2500 (or whatever your base price is) worth of enjoyment or use out of a plainer saddle that does fit that horse over the remainder of its lifetime. If that is not an economic option, then they really weren't looking for "custom" to begin with.

That said, I understand where you are coming from. I too worked for a cutting trainer, and had to make do with a couple saddles. Several similar horses can be closely fit with the same couple of saddles. My current customers are mostly barrel racers, ropers, and cowboys moving up from factory saddles, or else they wore out the old handmade they were the 2nd owner on. Those customers you have to fit the middle ground and hope they can pad up the difference. The economic reality is that some kids have to wear hand-me-down shoes, and some horses wear hand-me-down saddles. The fit may not be perfect, but hopefully the right socks or pad will get it done.

Bruce Johnson

[David Genadek]

I agree fully with both of you. You have to push me pretty hard to get me to make a tree for a single horse. The fact is there is a limited number of rib cage shapes and most horses will fall into one of them. The biggest reason most people think they need a custom tree is because they have been riding the horse upside down.

I have three shapes that will fit most horses. The problem is most tree makers are focusing on gullet width and not bar shape so they don't even offer the bare minnimum. I'm dead against micro fitting but I am for the industry doing the research needed to identify ribcage shapes and then doing the necessary retooling to accomadate them. Mr Nikkel's focus on the hand hole area is a better focus than what everyone else is doing because it allows the tree maker to put enough flair on the bar.

We get a lot of horses through here and the majority will use one of two shapes so what you guys are saying about two saddles is very reasonable from what I have seen. Around here we use three regularly and I will need to add a few more that will get used infrequently but we deal with more breeds than most training facilities would.

The real question is with modern technology can we improve the shapes? I say yes but at the same time I am fully aware of the constraints that have been on the treemakers and I am all to aware of the complexity of the situation .

David Genadek

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

It is interesting what you can find sometimes when you Google your name. This time we found someone saying that none of our trees would fit a real horse. On another thread there is another person saying that saddle fitting doesn't have much to do with the saddle. And there are a couple (thank you) who appreciate our efforts to communicate some information. It is with a bit of trepidation that we have decided to post here, but we felt that we did want to respond from our viewpoint.

Just to let people know more about where we are coming from - Our web site was originally set up so we could direct our customers to it. We wanted to communicate more easily with our customers, to explain how we build our trees, why we build them the way we do, and how we think about saddle trees (and life). Our information articles come from our opinions, based on our experience and the information we have gained over 11 years of hand crafting individual saddle trees as a full time profession. We enjoy learning more, which is why we keep detailed records on each and every tree we build, why we have a library of different horse's back shapes, and why we listen to saddle makers. We also enjoy helping others who are interested to learn more, or at least think about things from a different view point, whether they agree with us or not. This was the purpose of our website.

Rod comes from a working cowboy background, and while we build for many different types of horses and uses, a fair proportion of our trees go into working rigs all over North America. These saddles are used hard, for long hours, by people who make their living on horse back. The comments we receive back are consistently positive, and we are thankful for that fact. If our trees work for these guys, we know they will work for the pleasure riders too.

A big part of running a small business is knowing who your customers are. What does this person want to accomplish with their riding? Some people just enjoy being with their horses and pleasure riding. They don't generally ride for great lengths of time or ask a lot of their horses. (They also don't generally order custom saddles, unless they have way too much money.) Some people want to build their horse into the best athlete and partner he can be in whatever discipline they prefer. They tend to ride each horse for relatively short time periods (often less than an hour), but they ride intensely, concentrating on their horse and his body, asking him to be as specific as possible in the maneuver they are working on at all times. (They may want a custom saddle specifically geared to their discipline. Most of the specifics would have to do with the top of the saddle, though riding a horse which is always being asked to move in collection makes a difference on the bottom side too.) A lot of our customers don't go out to ride with the sole intention of spending time with their horse, or building their horse into the best athlete and partner he can be. That is part of what they do (and some do it very well), but it is often a side benefit. The main goal is generally to check that 15 miles of fence, round up a few hundred head of cattle, or get those cows doctored for foot rot. The horse's back will change shape with every one of those hundreds of steps he will take in that four to twelve hour period. Sometimes his hind end will be underneath him and he will round up more, especially if he needs to turn quickly. Sometimes he will be going flat out to get past that cow. Sometimes he will be asked to concentrate hard on his job, and sometimes he will be allowed to relax as he moves between more intense jobs. This is the horse and rider we build for.

That is why we use the wood we do, the thickness of hide that we do, and the construction techniques that we do. (We don't say that you can't break one of our trees, but we haven't had a broken one come back yet. We do say if you do break one, we want to hear the story, because it will be entertaining!)

That is also why we build our trees to fit the way they do. It is very true that the closer the shape of the entire bar is to the shape of the horses back the more stable the saddle will be. But it is the wither pocket that is the best area of the horse's back to hold the saddle in place when a 1000 lb animal at the end of the rope tries to pull it sideways. We build trees so the front bar pad fits into the wither pocket behind the shoulder (without interfering with the shoulder). This then determines where the rest of the tree is positioned on the horse's back, which dictates the shape of the bars, with all their variables. We work hard to fit the shape of the horse with our starting point as the wither pocket. But since every tree maker does things differently, even if they position their tree in the same place on the horse's back, they will all be somewhat different in their basic fit, and the trees need to be seen to be evaluated.

A tree that is made to be placed in a different spot on a horse's back will have bars that are shaped very differently because they are made to fit a different area of the back. A tree that is made to accomplish a different purpose may or may not be shaped differently again. It is not that one shape or place on the back is right and one is wrong. They are just different, because they are being used for different purposes.

We sure don't claim to corner the market on knowledge. But we do have a lot of experience and a lot of satisfied customers. And our customers are not just the riders but the (generally) more knowledgeable saddle makers, some of whom have been building for many years and are highly regarded in their field. So to read that someone who, to our knowledge, has never seen one of our trees, let alone tried it on a few horses, bluntly condemns us, saying that we are "way off" and that "none of (our) trees will fit a real horse" is disturbing, to put it mildly. It also pushes the boundaries of "not using this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly defamatory, inaccurate or abusive" as stated in the Forum Rules and Terms. It is fine to have strong opinions and to state them. Let's just state them as such and be respectful in the way we do it.

It will be interesting to continue to read some of the topics here. Bruce's idea of getting ideas and opinions of the different parts of the tree is a great one. Lots of good questions and discussion starter in that first post in Bars and Bottoms. It will be interesting to see where it goes. I am sure we can all learn.

[Blake]

It will be interesting to continue to read some of the topics here. Bruce’s idea of getting ideas and opinions of the different parts of the tree is a great one. Lots of good questions and discussion starter in that first post in Bars and Bottoms. It will be interesting to see where it goes. I am sure we can all learn.

I would like to say "WELCOME" to Rod & Denise and I am sure many of us will be looking forward to their participation.

Best regards

Blake