Heavily Tooled?

[JohnBarton]

All,

I have found this thread to be very interesting and it raises more questions than I could even begin to answer. The problem for me begins with the basic definition of a "tool". The knife I use and the carving tools I use are tools and I use my hands. There are several ways to do embossing starting with a Hand embosser, to a mechanical embosser powered by hand to a mechanical embosser powered by an electric motor, but it is still just a tool. If I tool belt blank (probably punched out by a machine) with Hand Tools and then use the motorized edger to finish it, is it Hand Made, Machine Made, Hand Tooled ????? With the introduction of the Laser into the mix, what additional confusion will be created?

I like the idea of fully explaining how one makes the article under consideration since I can then stay true to my heart and spirit. It is then up to the buyer to decide if they want to buy or not, and that has always been up to the buyer.

BillB.

I agree. However I do think that the accepted implication of "tooled" by itself is "hand tooled". I think you find that most people use them interchangeably.

I have nothing against the use of embossers, lasers, etc.... I just think that if one is going to highlight certain aspects to enhance the description then one should be truthful about the method and not use a term that may be technically correct but is not commonly used in that manner and is intended to be taken in the more advantageous way.

For example, some of my competitors to this day will sell their vinyl cases with a little die cut leather symbol on it that says "real leather" or just "leather". And that and the handles will be the only pieces of real leather on the case. That infuriates me to no end.

Obviously most people fudge a little bit. When you say something is hand made you don't really count the power tools that you might have used to make it, be they a drill press, a dremel, a burnishing wheel and so on....

A famous cue maker once said in a debate over the use of CNC for doing inlays that when someone says that their cues are hand made then he expects them to use nothing but a knife to make it. Thus guy designed cues that were mind and wallet blowing. Thomas Wayne.

This is however why I asked what the accepted vernacular is. If everyone said tooling is tooling no matter how it's done then my objection to my competitor's description would have evaporated.

And honestly I still would love to get your combined thoughts on how these things should be described for my educational page. I'd love to cite LeatherWorker.net as the souce of the information. I don't mind sending prospective customers here to learn about leather working and what it entails. A better educated consumer is one that knows what quality is and expects to pay for it.

[Hennessy]

Don't ya just hate it when a competitor (or not) makes a play on words in order to justify their existence? My experience has often been that the cheaply made product is priced higher than my prices for a matching or similar product.

Here's what I would do. I'd set up a spot on my website for educating the general public. Show samples of hand-tooled and embossed patterns on leather, include some close up shots of each. Explain briefly, yet succinctly, the differences between the two. Explain how the process is achieved in both instances. If possible, show pics of what embossed leather looks like new, and what it looks like after a couple of years. Huge difference with respect to the durability/maintaining pattern clarity between embossed and expertly hand-tooled leather. Keep your responses on an informational/educational level. That way you're not taking "digs" at the competition. It's likely that you'll aggravate the heck of the competition because you've exposed their scam, but you've done nothing more than educate the customer with information that they could ultimately find out through their own research. Integrity is the name of the game here. There's a ton of businesses/competitors out there who choose not to follow that line - don't be one of them.

In this instant case, I'd show the potential customer detailed pics of what your tooled cases exhibit. Tell the customer what type of leather/materials you use, who the artisan is that does the tooling, and encourage them to do some research on those materials and bios. If they've got a lick of sense (and most do), they'll be back to you with the results of their search and ordering one of your cases.

Good luck to you.

welcome to the world of volume,someones always gonna pop up n kick you in the market place.here's what i'd do, carefully look over his product and make exactly the same product cheaper by a little and add them into your line,a pro line and an amateur line guess wot would be th amateur line? adios pete

[TroyWest]

I think your line of reasoning in this matter is positive. I appreciate your wanting to take the higher road. It is the right thing to do regardless of what the competition does.

I would agree with your interpretation of the terminology. It is the same as my own, although the terms tooling and embossing are sometimes used interchangedly.

I think educating your customers is the best route to take. In the photograph his case actually looks pretty good, but it also looks embossed.

Embossing, in my mind, is making a plate, of metal, fiberglass, or plastics, with the design. Moisten the leather, put the plate on top, and press the design into the leather.This process takes seconds to put into the leather. The plate can be used hundreds of times to put the same design in leather, rapidly and inexpensively.

Tooling, as we commonly refer to it, is drawing, or transferring the design to the leather, cutting each line idividually, beveling each line with a beveler. Using a number of tools each one individually tapped with a mallet taking hours to produce a hand carved piece that would take seconds to emboss. Hence, the tremendous difference in price. It takes no skill to emboss, but a lot of time goes in to developing good carving skills.

I know that you are aware of all these things, but you asked for opinions of others on these matters, and these are a few of my thoughts. I hope they will be helpful.

Troy West

[JohnBarton]

welcome to the world of volume,someones always gonna pop up n kick you in the market place.here's what i'd do, carefully look over his product and make exactly the same product cheaper by a little and add them into your line,a pro line and an amateur line guess wot would be th amateur line? adios pete

Don't think that this has not crossed my mind more than once. The problem with this approach is that it's a race to the bottom as the competition can always take more shortcuts and still achieve the "look" that's good enough to fool people in the short term.I will tell you a quick story.Once upon a time back before we did mass production in the early 90's I was visited in my German office by a Taiwanese importer whom I had met at a trade show. She came to visit me while in town visiting her large customers. She came fishing for information and one of the questions she asked was what our best seller was.

At the time I was into all kinds of pastels and was making cases using a brilliant blue vinyl and hot pink among other colors. So I picked out a blue and pink one and showed it to her and said this is our best seller bar none.Three months later I was at the annual industry trade show in Las Vegas and as I walked up to her booth there was a line of blue and pink cases proudly on display. She was obviously embarrassed but I played it off as if it meant nothing and asked her how they were selling. She said that no one was taking an interest in them and I said, "oh, I thought you were asking what the best selling colors were for Germany, the Americans hate this color combination." :-) Sometimes you win one.

What I have learned in business these past 20 years is that relationships sell products. Honestly it's not about who has the cheapest price in most transactions. If it were then there wouldn't be any brand names. It's the relationship you form with your customer that ultimately wins the day. Obviously you aren't going to have a license to steal just because you have a good relationship though, you aren't going to be selling a million widgets at $3 while all of your competition is at $1.50. But I will bet that you can sell them at $1.75 if your customers have faith in you and your quality and service.Once you establish a good trusting rapport and back it up with quality items then you are well on the way to outdistancing the competition.

At shows I used to educate my consumers about my quality with demos. I would actually take their $5000 cue and put it in my case and turn the case upside down with the lid open and shake it vigorously. Among other things. Then I would point out the other vendors who were selling copies of my cases and invite the customer to study them on their own. And the last thing I would say to the customer is that if they ended up choosing one of the copies over mine because of the attractive price then I wasn't worried about it because sooner or later, probably sooner, they would be back for the real thing. I went to shows for 10 years and many of you can surely attest that you end up seeing the same people over and over again year after year. Time and again I was proven right when a customer came back the following year reporting problems with the copy case they bought and stated that they were dead set on buying on of mine that year.

I wish it were as easy as just sitting your goods out and watching them sell like hot buttered corn. I had that feeling one time and one time only. The first year I brought out what has become the most copied design in cases we sold out several hundred cases in a matter of days. I sold all my cases, bought cues to take back to Germany and had to buy other people's cases to hold the cues. :-) That was a sweet show. Ever since then I have looked across the aisle and wince every time I see a row of cases with my design that I have received no compensation for.Thus I am not a big fan of copying other people's designs. In some situations though I will do that which you suggested but I strive to make my version better than it's predecessors or I don't want to touch the project. If I can't do something to improve it then I leave it alone.

I think your line of reasoning in this matter is positive. I appreciate your wanting to take the higher road. It is the right thing to do regardless of what the competition does.I would agree with your interpretation of the terminology. It is the same as my own, although the terms tooling and embossing are sometimes used interchangedly.I think educating your customers is the best route to take. In the photograph his case actually looks pretty good, but it also looks embossed.Embossing, in my mind, is making a plate, of metal, fiberglass, or plastics, with the design. Moisten the leather, put the plate on top, and press the design into the leather.This process takes seconds to put into the leather. The plate can be used hundreds of times to put the same design in leather, rapidly and inexpensively.Tooling, as we commonly refer to it, is drawing, or transferring the design to the leather, cutting each line idividually, beveling each line with a beveler. Using a number of tools each one individually tapped with a mallet taking hours to produce a hand carved piece that would take seconds to emboss. Hence, the tremendous difference in price. It takes no skill to emboss, but a lot of time goes in to developing good carving skills.I know that you are aware of all these things, but you asked for opinions of others on these matters, and these are a few of my thoughts. I hope they will be helpful.Troy West

Thank you Troy. This is the sort of information I am looking for. I think it carries more weight when it comes from people who do the work rather than someone like myself who designs but does not tool. Edited February 2, 2009 by JohnBarton

[wildrose]

I just have to add a little bit to this conversation: if some idiot wants to buy that first pictured piece over that second lovely piece of leatherwork, it's their loss (though they might keep a little more money in their pocket). Anyone looking seriously can just tell your case is much nicer.

But I agree with what others have said about it being wise for you to take the high road and try reasonably to explain the differences in laymans terms to customers.

[JohnBarton]

I just have to add a little bit to this conversation: if some idiot wants to buy that first pictured piece over that second lovely piece of leatherwork, it's their loss (though they might keep a little more money in their pocket). Anyone looking seriously can just tell your case is much nicer.

But I agree with what others have said about it being wise for you to take the high road and try reasonably to explain the differences in laymans terms to customers.

Thank you!

I just picked two images at random - one from them and one from ours. The Russian does have some nice stuff though with some very interesting designs. A little busy and overdone in some areas for my taste but interesting and creative nonetheless.

If anyone wants to see the rest of the Russian's stuff it's here; http://www.arthit.ru/cue-cases/cue-cases-37.html

Again THANKS - blush -

P.S. My beef is not with the case maker but rather the importer who is using the "heavily tooled" description.

[BillB]

I agree. However I do think that the accepted implication of "tooled" by itself is "hand tooled". I think you find that most people use them interchangeably.

I have nothing against the use of embossers, lasers, etc.... I just think that if one is going to highlight certain aspects to enhance the description then one should be truthful about the method and not use a term that may be technically correct but is not commonly used in that manner and is intended to be taken in the more advantageous way.

For example, some of my competitors to this day will sell their vinyl cases with a little die cut leather symbol on it that says "real leather" or just "leather". And that and the handles will be the only pieces of real leather on the case. That infuriates me to no end.

Obviously most people fudge a little bit. When you say something is hand made you don't really count the power tools that you might have used to make it, be they a drill press, a dremel, a burnishing wheel and so on....

A famous cue maker once said in a debate over the use of CNC for doing inlays that when someone says that their cues are hand made then he expects them to use nothing but a knife to make it. Thus guy designed cues that were mind and wallet blowing. Thomas Wayne.

This is however why I asked what the accepted vernacular is. If everyone said tooling is tooling no matter how it's done then my objection to my competitor's description would have evaporated.

And honestly I still would love to get your combined thoughts on how these things should be described for my educational page. I'd love to cite LeatherWorker.net as the souce of the information. I don't mind sending prospective customers here to learn about leather working and what it entails. A better educated consumer is one that knows what quality is and expects to pay for it.

Since you asked for my opinion here it is:

If I have manufactured the product in question from scratch and tooled it by hand, even if I used an electric burnisher to finish it, I would advertise it as "custom designed" and "Hand Tooled"

If I used a manufactured belt blank and hand tooled it I would advertise it as "Hand Tooled".

If I used an embossing machine (hand or electric) to press the patter onto the belt blank I would advertise it as "Embossed".

If I used a Laser Engraver to Engrave the pattern on the leather I would advertise it as Laser Engraved or Etched.

That is the only way I can stay true to my Heart and my convictions. I can only judge myself to my own rules, and let the "Great Spirit" judge the rest.

BillB

[Hennessy]

Thank you!

I just picked two images at random - one from them and one from ours. The Russian does have some nice stuff though with some very interesting designs. A little busy and overdone in some areas for my taste but interesting and creative nonetheless.

If anyone wants to see the rest of the Russian's stuff it's here; http://www.arthit.ru/cue-cases/cue-cases-37.html

Again THANKS - blush -

P.S. My beef is not with the case maker but rather the importer who is using the "heavily tooled" description.

i 'm a bit slow getting mind n fingers goin together here's what i'm parabling about.toyota

started out with a car or two and overcame every kind of negative from all over.every time the competition drew level they pull'd one more out of th hat.celica corolla etc etc now they have a line that doesen't even bear their name lexus and every one knows. now is that sales or marketing?seems to me,availability to various levels of purchasers means more sales and thus more referals pete

[JohnBarton]

i 'm a bit slow getting mind n fingers goin together here's what i'm parabling about.toyota

started out with a car or two and overcame every kind of negative from all over.every time the competition drew level they pull'd one more out of th hat.celica corolla etc etc now they have a line that doesen't even bear their name lexus and every one knows. now is that sales or marketing?seems to me,availability to various levels of purchasers means more sales and thus more referals pete

I am not sure that you point, which is well taken, has to do with the topic. I am not sure but I think that Jaguar or Rolls Royce says something about hand fitted interiors or doors or something. Something about what they do is labor intensive with a lot of attention to detail and done by superior craftsmen. If Toyota had said that their interiors were "hand-fitted" simply because at some point a human being touched them and the purpose of saying it was to make people think that they were done with as much care as Rolls Royce interiors then it would be misleading. I think that is a comparable example, at least as best I can come up with to fit your car analogy.

What I am really looking for in this thread is just to see if we can come up with terms that most of us agree on would be proper descriptions for different styles of decoration.

I don't consider any for of decoration to be either good or bad or one any "worse" or "better" than any other. For example to me an artfully placed decal is better than a crappily tooled image. I have seen some amazing stuff done with a laser engraver by people who take the time to understand and operate their laser in such a way that it function's like a brush in the hand of an artist. And I think that someone with embossing plates can make some interesting designs. All I want though is either NO MENTION of what method it is - which allows the product to stand on it's own without regard to how it got there - or, proper descriptions of what method was used so that the customer is not misled into thinking that one method equals another in terms of the knowledge and talent it took to bring it about.

I can take a pattern image, say a celtic knot, and laser engrave it, make a plate and emboss, and also tool it. Only the tooled version can show true diversity of character and depth through subtle touches. Let's say I made a contest where the folks here were challenged with tooling a celtic knot but were not allowed to add any extra decoration to it, just the knot with beveled edges and the surface texture could be flat or dimpled. You and I both know that even with those limitations we would see a bunch of knots that would blow us away. My entire point is that if I made a plate of the knot and embossed it then there is no way that this should be judged on the same level or made out to be equal to the knots that were hand tooled.

Anyway, I think we are on the right track and I will definitely be using some of the information from this thread. Thanks everyone and if you have something to add to it please do. Hopefully my "education" page will serve as something you can use for your own marketing - anyone is free to copy and use my information once I publish it on the web as long as you provide a link back to my page.

[TroyWest]

One other thought that I had would be to do this. I dont know if you do any press plates or have access to any, but, if you could take a floral pattern that was pressed or embossed into the leather. Then have someone hand carve the exact same pattern. Color them the same. Then simply ask anyone who comes by. Which of these looks better? I believe the hand carved one would win every time. You could then easily explain the difference. This one took 30 seconds, this one took 2 hrs., 3hrs., etc., to tool this one panel. This would explain and justify the difference in cost. Our industry is very much a visual industry. It is about quality, but it is very much about how it looks. The pressed one may look pretty good on its own, but when put up beside a hand carved one it will pale.