tree fitting... I know, I know

[jdalberta1]

OK from the start I like to thank everyone on this forum who has constructively shared their experience concerning leatherworking and specifically saddlemaking. As a newbie to the intracacies of saddle design and repair the information I`ve gleaned from this site is invaluable.

The horse I was riding last summer and am hoping to buy soon is a 16h quarter horse gelding on the wide side. The saddle that his owner and I use is 7 1/2" wide at the gullet, 93 degree, 22 1/2" bar moderate production quality, ralide tree...say no more. It seems to fit him OK given how wide he is at the withers.

If I buy him I`ll be looking for my own saddle for him. I`ve got a 1960`s better quality Textan that I`m part way through restoring. Without having tried it on him yet my gut tells me it`s too tight up front at 6 1/2" wide. Lacking sufficient flare up front and too steep in the rear bars. The skirts have been removed so that new shearling can be installed and I`ll check the tree fit next week when I go visit him at his winter pasture. In Stolman`s books mention is made of skived stripes placed between treebars and skirting. This is of course a less than ideal "fix"... a way of using a saddle who`s tree does not in and of itself fit properly. I`m probably going to catch hell for this but what the hell if it works? Just so long as it takes into account and doesn`t wreck the rock, twist, bar angle, relief ect. Thoughts?? Any body tried this??

I`ve heard that quarter horse conformation has changed significantly since the sixty`s as a result of breeding;Doc Bar et al. I`d be interested in finding out more about this since so many folks still use saddle from that era.

There is one saddlery in my area that offers a saddle fitting service which uses plastic/fiberglass vacuum molds of the various tree designs that their production saddle maker use. The molds conform very closely if not exactly to the shape of the underside of the tree. I pulled their stack of molds apart and went through them and kinda liked the concept. Allowing for proper skirt blocking, shearling thickness, lack of saddle mass etc this mold idea initially seems to be a reasonable means of actually visualizing how various shapes of trees fit on any horse. Now yeah I have to allow that right now he`s out of condition, fat, winter coated, not moving and not under saddle but at least this way there`s a point of reference that even I can understand.

I like the concept of Dennis Lane`s system but as a end user not yet savvy to the highly contentious and involved craft of saddle fitting I`m looking for way to set myself and my horse up for success as they say. Down the road if we work out and grow as a team then I`d likely invest in a custom saddle.

[mulefool]

If you are wondering if there is a way to use the shim idea from Stohlmans book on the 6 1/2" gullet saddle, I don't think that would work too well. If the saddle is too narrow I don't think there will be much you could do about that.

Are the molds that your local saddle shop actually trees? it seems like they could just use a bare tree to do the same thing. If you are thinking of getting one of their saddles that might be a good way to go.

As far as the Dennis Lane cards, they're really straight forward and easy to use, however you would need to go to a saddlemaker or treemaker that understands how they work I think. Chris

[Hidemechanic]

JD,

we're a few weeks old now, not sure if you made a decision, but my suggestion is to look for another horse. Not sure what kind of riding you are doing either.

I have seen so many people with saddle fit problems and the fit issue, the majority of the time, comes down to the horse not having the typical build that most commercial saddles are designed for.

I know, it's easy to get attached quickly to the horses we ride, but that attachment has to, IMO, include the well being and comfort of the horse. I (and many on this board)am constantly explaining to people that the saddle that they need for their horse just isn't out there. Their major choices are, have a saddle made that later may not fit other horses, and find a horse with a well conformed back that will accept more of the commercial saddles.

My main thing with people in your situation with a big shouldered horse is finding something that almost fits, and trying to make due. The horse may not tell you but it will hurt at some point. I'm sure you want him to be comfortable when you ride him.

Wish you luck

[mulefool]

That brings up an interesting point. About 30 years ago when I was just learning to build saddles I had an opportunity to talk with Jerry Holes. I asked a question about hard to fit horses and he said if he had one that was hard to fit he'd get rid of it. I was alittle taken aback at the time, but over the years I have come to see the wisdom of those words. When I was starting out I built some saddles for these kinds of horses and in retrospect I wish I hadn't.

That said, we all have our blind spots. I love mules and they mostly aren't blessed with the perfect back to hold a saddle. Chris

[Traveller]

I have a hard to fit horse (big shoulders, halter bred quarter horse build) and if I'd known what I was doing, I wouldn't have bought him, based on that fact alone. But now that I've had him for four years, I'm kind of stuck. I like the horse -- he's got a great temperament, so long as the saddle fits -- and I feel a sense of responsibility for him. Which means I have to find a saddle to fit him. Or the next person would have to. So somebody's got to, and I guess that person is me.

Funny thing is, when I bought him, I thought he had an uncomplicated back. It still doesn't look bad, until you get to those shoulders (I've attached a recent photo that shows how big they are).

I agree with Hidemechanic -- you don't own the horse yet and there are lots of good horses out there at reasonable prices with backs that won't make you crazy, or cost you a fortune.

[bruce johnson]

Joanne,

Has anyone got a chance to put some of Dennis' cards on him yet? Photo angles and shadows make it hard for me to really tell things sometimes.

[mulefool]

Looking at that back doesn't look bad to me either. Maybe I'm off, but his shoulders just don't seem that big in the photo. It would be interesting to get some of Dennis's cards on him. Chris

[Traveller]

Ron Stolp has some cards and is going to come by to measure him up but so far we haven't been able to work out a time. I'm really looking forward to finding out how it turns out. In the meantime, a woman at my barn has an old Silver Supreme that Traveller's not objecting to (not yet, anyway!) so at least I'm able to ride. It's a short-term solution, though.

When Chuck Stormes looked at this photo, he seemed to think his shoulders looked more muscled up than the average horse.

I'll keep you all aprised -- thanks for checking in!

Joanne

[D.A. Kabatoff]

I was out to visit Joanne at the beginning of March this year and try a few trees on Traveller's back to see what kind of fitting issues might be present. With Joanne's permission I am posting some photos I took at the time. The first photo shows where there is a significant difference over a typical back. I have used a yellow circle to show for lack of better terminology the "lump" present on both sides of the withers. The vertical yellow line gives an estimation of where the bar tips of various trees were digging into the lumps. The lumps are approximately 7"s in diameter at the base and protrude outwards over an inch at the center. As seen from the photo taken from behind the horse, the lump on the left is more prominent than the one on the right side.

I tried three different trees I happened to have on hand that came from three different makers. All three were deemed 90 degree bars with 4" handhole widths by their makers and I believe two of them would have been appropriate for this horse had the tip of the bars not been pressing into the lumps. As you can see from the photos, all three were digging in at roughly the same point and in my estimation would cause discomfort to the horse. I have never seen such a problem and would be curious if anyone else has and what possible options Joanne might have for fitting this horse. As she stated above, she likes this horse for various reasons and doesn't necessarily want to pass the fitting issues off to someone else. Short of finding something used that might work, an obvious concern would be, in the future, spending the money on a handmade tree and custom saddle, only to be disappointed with the results.

Darc

[greg gomersall]

Darcy is the horse standing square in the first photo? if he is he is alot higher in the croup than anywhere else on his back and anything you put on him is gonna run forward into the shoulders. In the second photo the protruding tissue looks considerably larger on the near side over the off. Greg