Comparison to other's work?

[RustyMelton]

First,

I am asking a group of my peers how they would handle a situation not defending how I did it. I like Suze's approach.

Secondly, I never said that Darrin's work is junk, I have only said that it is NOT YET at the standard that Darin's customers have said it is. Yes, perhaps the comment about Zeke and Darin only having working leather in common was harsh but it wasn't really meant to be and an apology is warranted for that. So I formally apologize to "Darin" for that comment.

Who is Chaz Dillon in our HYPOTHETICAL story? :-)

But yes when new leather worker Chaz comes on and invites comments and I see something I comment on it. I put my work up all the time and get criticized and what I do is use that criticism to get better. If the issue is structural then I find a way to fix it, it the issue is decorative then I find a way to get better there.

I believe that I have taken more heat than any newbie ever has not only for what I make, but how I make it, where it's made, and even how much profit they think I make. People take the liberty to tell me what to make, where I am allowed to make it, and how much I am allowed to charge - so yeah it's a grievance when a newbie comes on and people start proclaiming that this person is the next messiah, especially when their work isn't there yet. - Now as Windy said some people CAN DO more in a year than a so-called veteran has done in 50. That is why I just look at the work and not the person.

I have not personally seen Darin's work that is true. But I have seen Erik's and hung out with Erik and know his work pretty well. I think that after 18 years of doing this and studying these things I have become somewhat adept at seeing the differences in the work. Now, can I go further and see the differences in stroke and technique caused by inexperience, wrong or inadequate tools, use of certain finish methods and so on? No I can't because, as I have stated many times, I am not a tooler.

As for telling someone that an item described as being the best in the world may not live up to that description when put up for resale what is not true or fair about that? If I took a no-name saddle maker's saddle and went and bragged about it and said something like this guy is as good as Chester Hape and Don King when it isn't YET and someone ended up buying that saddle based on that testimonial then tried to resell it to someone who IS familiar with the work of those two then the reseller would get his ass laughed out of town.

Don't we laugh at the noobs who come on the pool forums trying to sell us "collectible signed Balabuskas"? Think about it.

You know what the person I wrote that to said in reply Rusty?

He said that he is only building up the work to "protect his investment" and that I should let the buying public remain ignorant of what truly great leather work is. Shall I also share his PRIVATE communication to me in order to prove that to you?

Do you feel the same way? I know that you are a humble guy and don't feel that your work is YET in the same league as some of your famous colleagues. But do you feel that you do Sheridan carving "as good as anyone else in the world"? That is one of the things that has been said about your work from the person who is protecting his investment.

As for myself, while I have accepted praise for our decorative work, I point towards the giants in leather decorating to let my customers know what I am aiming at. You know this full well because I have done it many times. I don't let others do my marketing and accept accolades I haven't earned yet. However when someone says something like my cue cases are the best one for the money then I don't disagree with them because I feel that this is correct. That is my stated goal and we have reached at least that. When someone says your case, or so-and-so's is the best for the money and it's not then I don't contradict them unless it's part of a debate I am in and we are doing apples-to-apples comparisions. Otherwise I let it slide because value is also relative.

But when someone proclaims that another brand is more protective and that is not a fact and I say something about it. That's how I roll, I accept criticism, defend where I need to and and change where I need to.

As for the decoration aspect though I understand that art is subjective by nature. Prior to beginning again in 2007 I didn't spend a lot of time on the decoration of our cases. We had tooled cases in our line that were done by a Czech tooler and later done in house at the factory in Taiwan, the Taiwanese learned through books and tapes I bought from Tandy leather. I couldn't have told you if our tooling was good or bad in comparision to anyone else's whether on cue cases or any other leather goods. Ok well I could tell you if it was bad because even I could see if the impressions weren't straight, or consistent, or the coloring was off, and sometimes all of these things showed up.

BUT when I decided to get back into it and I knew that I WANTED to be part of the beauty contest in cue cases I knew that I should start to study and learn and grow as to what really good decorative work is so I could make sure that whatever we were putting on our cases would not only be accepted by the largely ignorant public but would be accepted by discerning collectors and most importantly by leather crafters themselves.

And every case we do we try to improve and try new things, try to emulate the best that we see and hopefully someday become one of the best.

And I am sure that your goal isn't much different in that you want to be the best you can with what you do. My problem isn't with you or your work.

My problem is with people who unfairly hype your work and put it where it doesn't yet belong. What qualifies me to even make such a statement? Nothing really except that I feel you haven't yet reached the level of the top guys in Sheridan carving based on the work I see from those guys and based on what I have so-far seen from you. So that is absolutely just my layman's opinion, just as the opinion of the person "protecting" his investment is that you are already "as good as anyone else in the world." So if he can state his opinion then I should be able to state mine on the same subject. Or do you feel it should be just one-sided? I just go step futher and provide examples of work from those considered the best in the world and let people see what that is.

In conclusion Rusty, since you made this open. I have nothing against you. I think your work is great and getting better. The case that Craig showed off is your best piece yet in my opinion. I already told you that I am proud of you for listening to me about paying attention to the protectiveness of your interiors.

I have always fought against inaccuracy and hype when it comes to cue cases (the only subject that one-dimensional me really knows anything about) and will continue to do so. Whether is is the guy selling knockoffs claiming that his products are as good as such and such name brand or the person touting the next great case maker by putting him on the highest pedestal you will find me to be the one to give a reality check.

Is this selfish? You bet it is, because I also have to protect my investment and the best way I know to do that is to follow the same formula I always have. Educate the customer and allow them then to make their own comparisons and hope that their choice is what I make.

Along the way it also promotes better products all the way around which only helps us all. (my altruistic moment of Zen).

Sincerely,

John Barton - hypothetical cue case maker :-)

I agree. I really really really need to work on the "how" to say something. In Germany they say the tone makes the music.

Thank you.

This will be the last I say on the subject,,,,,I have never never ever hyped my work. I think the most I have said is that it turned out pretty good or something like that. Never have I said I was the best at anything or will I ever. You can dog me at every turn if you want it only makes you look bad. I'm a very humble person that is only trying to learn and get better. So spin the tail to suit you John, I don't rely on leather work for a living, I work a 50 hour a week job. So take your jabs at me, we both the only reason you posted here was to start a fight.

[JohnBarton]

This will be the last I say on the subject,,,,,I have never never ever hyped my work. I think the most I have said is that it turned out pretty good or something like that. Never have I said I was the best at anything or will I ever. You can dog me at every turn if you want it only makes you look bad. I'm a very humble person that is only trying to learn and get better. So spin the tail to suit you John, I don't rely on leather work for a living, I work a 50 hour a week job. So take your jabs at me, we both the only reason you posted here was to start a fight.

Rusty,

Do you even READ what I write before you respond?

I NEVER said that YOU are hyping your work. NEVER NOT ONCE NEVER.

I said I have NO PROBLEM with you or your work. I am not DOGGING YOU OR YOUR WORK.

Please try to read what I write and absorb it before responding. I have no intention of fighting with you and the subject was broached HERE in order to get the perspective of others who MAKE THINGS for a living and how they would handle it. If I wanted to fight then I would have named names as you did.

John

[Bree]

No fighting boyz. Relax.

Regardless of who's who in this hypothetical, it seems to me that business is business. People fight to win in business. Sometimes they fight a little too hard or a little unfairly but make no mistake they are playing to win.

The question is do you want to win or engage in philosophical meditations? If you want to win, then fight to win. Follow your own sense of what is ethical but ACT or lose. There is nothing at all wrong with self-promotion nor with pointing out the plusses and minuses of both your product and that of your competition. Indeed, failure to do so almost ensures that you will lose against a determined competitor.

Is your work art or is your work a commercial product? If it's art then you needn't compare it to anything else. It is what it is for whomever wishes to view it. If it is a commercial product, then get busy SELLING it so you make money and can pay the bills.

[HorsehairBraider]

Good points Bree!

So how do you "fight" without being a jerk? Well, don't get personal. You can contrast yourself to others in a polite way - and if you get personal, it will reflect badly on you. You will be seen - rightly or wrongly - as a jerk, as you seem to realize in your OP.

It will never hurt your cause to be polite. Simply pointing out that you have a different "style" or that you have a different "method" can be helpful, and this can be done in a polite, quiet way... being insulting or personal will never help with the customer. And it's important to the customer, because who wants to buy stuff from a jerk? (Well, OK, I have once or twice done that, when the work was superior - but usually you want to have a relationship with the person and no one wants to have a relationship with a jerk.) The customer wants to think of you as "their" artist. They want to be proud of you and show you off to everyone. That's what is going on with "George" in Suze's example. You can, very politely, say something like, "Well, my style is very different. I always like to ______. And then I _____ ." NO NEED to say anything negative, nor even mention the other person's name. All you need to say is you are DIFFERENT. That does not necessarily imply BETTER.

And you know what? It may not BE better! Maybe they are looking for something you don't make! That's fine. There are a lot of people in this world, and their different points of view are what make life fun and interesting.

One of the most important lessons I ever learned on marketing: don't waste your time trying to sell your product to someone who does not want it. For example, I went bowling a couple of times and hated it. You are wasting your time trying to get me to go bowling - I tried it and thought it was stupid. Try and get someone else, someone who WANTS to go bowling. Many times I turn people down when they come to me for custom work. They don't want what I am selling! And yet, I STILL have plenty of work. I just try very hard to reach the people who want my work. When I sell to them, everything is a piece of cake - they love my work, they love me, I love them... Everybody's happy. And in all of that, there is NO NEED for me to talk about someone else. I just talk about MY work.

[quadrary]

That was well said horsehairbraider and i might add excellent advice. I feel that anytime you inject yourself into someone elses business particularly if you are not a principal in the transaction you are asking for trouble. I was not a casemaker involved in this and if i interjected myself into the discussion i feel i would be inviting bad karma. Perhaps many people would be best served concentrating on their business and sales and not trying to critique others work to potential customers they only look small and defensive.

just my nickles worth

[Lillian]

Here is my humble opinion.

Mind your own business and stay out of it.

I have done what you are presenting hypothetically.

I got trounced on by the parties involved.

There are lots of self declared Prophets of Leathercraft out there.

They are filled with self importance. Even when there is a person of

superior skills they do not repect that nor do they appreciate the

quality of the work or the materials used. I had someone verbally

attack me because my prices were higher than than what he thought

they ought to be. The fact I used high quality leather and used top

quality methods and the fact it took lots of my time to do the work

made no difference.

I work in leather for a living. I have to charge more than the guy down

at the feedstore that butchers up more saddles than he ever fixes.

I had some one say that because I was a woman, I should not expect to

get as much as a man gets. Really?

I specialize in my trade. I work mostly with women and these kinds of

people are everywhere. Both male and female.

It is pointless to try to educate them. Why? Because they already know all

there is to know about leathercraft.

I just let things like that pass. I just walk away. I do not need to get involved

in such trivialities.

I'd have ulcers if I did.

Let the Prophets of Leathercraft go do their thing and hope their victims can

see through the smoke.

I know some will say I am cynical. NO I just learned the hard way to

butt out of other peoples discussions.

I didn't need a second dose of what I got for trying to teach these dummies about

leather.

JMHO

sadlmakr

[kiwidownunder]

I will put a quick spoke on this wheel. I agree with alot of the points made by you all, esp Lillian.

I have done leather work for quite sometime, and feel that my work is not too bad, not prefect, and with room to improve. I also price different, as I do Art and Classic Leather, so one item gets priced way different to others. That's My thoughts on my work, what others think and say is completely up to the people saying them.

There are probably folk that say that it is not that good, priced to high, etc, and stare customers to other leatherworkers. I can not get upset with them, as it is up to the customer to decide where they end up going. Then it is up to me to not to get hard feelings towards my competition. It is just one person out of ten. That is what makes the world unique. What I like may not be what others like, and so on ,and so forth.

I would mind my own business, and not get personal, but if I feel that I just have to add a comment, I support both sides, by saying the experience between the two, etc, and not down grade eithers work, and maybe add a photo, but then let the people involved decide on the outcome.

In the horse world it is just as bad, one person spouting off against another horse person. I read their comments but keep my thoughts to myself, and maybe just add another way of looking at the problem without degrading anyone in the process. The one and only time I spoke up to defend a person, was when I had worked with someone for two years, and thier facts were wrong, and I knew the correct FACTS, and That is not the same as stating an I think, verses they think statement. Anybody can say what they think about someones work, as that is freedom of speech.

I am sure the master leatherworker has been through this before and would brush it aside and get on with his next clients work. That goes with running a business.

Well that is my view on things.

Kiwi.

[bluesman1951]

People all have opinions some founded in fact others in fantasy. Sad part about people with delusions is that after they have told the lie often enough in their minds it becomes fact . LOL The pretenders and fakes are exposed by simply looking at the work . Some people lack education and vocabulary to properly express them selves so the over used phrase comes to the front " Best I have ever seen " Truth be be told their experience may be very small ,sadly that makes their statement true ,but of no value at all . Life is too short to be schooling people about talent comparisons and skill levels . I would be up set but if my work was selling and I was happy with my life I would let my work speak for itself . Either buy it from me or someone else it dont matter to me . I followed some one on the way up and someone is surely following me now . I have maybe 6 years left before my kids will not let me play with glue and fire or really sharp stuff so it just dont matter . Every one knows who the liars and pretenders are and even a idiot can see the difference in quality .

Hi, once again I need your help.

I am going to couch this question in the hypothetical realm and just ask you how you would handle it.

Hypothetically, someone asks for offers on a leather case and suggestions and offers come pouring in. A person who is not a leather worker and not a seller chimes in to recommend another maker who hasn't made a public offer yet.

This person enthusiastically promotes the leather worker's work as being the next closest thing to a famous maker's work who is no longer actively making leather cases. (also this person has probably never actually had hands on experience with either maker's work)

The famous maker has been in working leather for nearly 60 years and his stuff is very high end and very detailed and very very well made. The person being promoted has been doing cases for a little while and is coming along well but there really isn't any basis to put the two in the same league yet.

This is not a question of someone shilling for the new guy for profit, nor does the enthusiast stand to gain financially from his statements, he just really feels that the work is that good. The new guy also does not feel that he is in the same league (although his cases are good and might well get there).

A bystander who is in the business, hypothetically someone like me, who has actually worked with the legendary leather worker sees this comparison and decides to set the record straight about it and disagree that the two people's work is at or near the same level.

My question to you is what would you do if you were the person who disagreed?

Would you let it slide?

Would you try to educate the readers as to the differences?

Would you just post up pictures and let the readers make their own comparisons?

The follow up question is do you think we all have a responsibility to uphold the heritage of great leather work? When we see misinformation about our craft should we try to correct it? Or is that going to be detrimental and seen only as self-serving and jealous?

Hypothetically, I am looking for some validation and cheap therapy here :-)

[bluesman1951]

Well said ,very well said ! It matters not which sex made a project just that its well done . I offer as proof of this : www.twistedfringe.com Brenda and Steven Lampman are they the best ever I dont know ? Are they mighty fine you bet . They are expensive and they sell all they make . Do I wish I was that good ,you bet I do !!!! My hats off to Brenda any day of the week ! Steve is a mighty good man too . They work together on these bags and are famous here in the South west. . Shila Love makes some right fine medicine bags ,she is now retired from the business but in her day a signed bag from her was a collectors dream . I have been doing leather to long to even care about the petty side of this stuff . There is nothing new under the sun in this day and age. When I get tired of making stuff I will teach or quit altogether .

Here is my humble opinion.

Mind your own business and stay out of it.

I have done what you are presenting hypothetically.

I got trounced on by the parties involved.

There are lots of self declared Prophets of Leathercraft out there.

They are filled with self importance. Even when there is a person of

superior skills they do not repect that nor do they appreciate the

quality of the work or the materials used. I had someone verbally

attack me because my prices were higher than than what he thought

they ought to be. The fact I used high quality leather and used top

quality methods and the fact it took lots of my time to do the work

made no difference.

I work in leather for a living. I have to charge more than the guy down

at the feedstore that butchers up more saddles than he ever fixes.

I had some one say that because I was a woman, I should not expect to

get as much as a man gets. Really?

I specialize in my trade. I work mostly with women and these kinds of

people are everywhere. Both male and female.

It is pointless to try to educate them. Why? Because they already know all

there is to know about leathercraft.

I just let things like that pass. I just walk away. I do not need to get involved

in such trivialities.

I'd have ulcers if I did.

Let the Prophets of Leathercraft go do their thing and hope their victims can

see through the smoke.

I know some will say I am cynical. NO I just learned the hard way to

butt out of other peoples discussions.

I didn't need a second dose of what I got for trying to teach these dummies about

leather.

JMHO

sadlmakr

[JohnBarton]

Well I see this topic came back to life........got an email notice that there was a response.

The topic title is comparison to other's work, the subtitle is 'how to do it without being a jerk', the shortest answer is probably that there is no way to do it without being a jerk.

Meanwhile since I put the topic up Rusty Melton has truly become a master case maker. He builds a case now that takes no backseat to any other cue case maker ever in my opinion.