alternative to Vinagroon/vinagoon ( however you spell it)

[Des804]

Chemist friend told me you could use Ferric Sulfate instead of the ferric acetate that is made when you do the vinegar thing so he sent me some to play with

I mixed 7 grams of the stuff + a mixture of 1/4 cup vinegar and 3/4 water and I let the crystals disolve and straight from that I dunked in a piece of the leather and bam its black now....

The Ferric Sulfate my friend gave me was recrystalized so it was cleaner then the stuff you would get at a plant store but he assures me its the same stuff you just have to filter the mixture if your going to use the stuff from the plant store... I'll try and take some photos tommorrow of the piece but yeah instead of waiting a week this stuff can be made in a day and used and a big bag of it is about 10 dollars.

[ChuckBurrows]

Chemist friend told me you could use Ferric Sulfate instead of the ferric acetate that is made when you do the vinegar thing so he sent me some to play with

I mixed 7 grams of the stuff + a mixture of 1/4 cup vinegar and 3/4 water and I let the crystals disolve and straight from that I dunked in a piece of the leather and bam its black now....

The Ferric Sulfate my friend gave me was recrystalized so it was cleaner then the stuff you would get at a plant store but he assures me its the same stuff you just have to filter the mixture if your going to use the stuff from the plant store... I'll try and take some photos tommorrow of the piece but yeah instead of waiting a week this stuff can be made in a day and used and a big bag of it is about 10 dollars.

With respect to you and your friend, but Ferric/Ferrous sulfate is NOT a good substitute - sulfates of any kind (as well as any other sulfur based chemical) are known major causes of leather deterioration.

[Des804]

Well it was worth a shot and I'll see how the small pieces ( just scraps nothing on them ) work out in the end anyways.

Also I'm seeing that they have sulfur dyes for leather. If Sulfur is bad for leather why do they have the dyes ?

Edited March 28, 2009 by Des804

[Des804]

Sorry to double post but here is a photo of what it looks like after its done.

[Des804]

Once again hate to post again when there was no responses but the chemist I was telling you about mentions that its not a sulfide it a sulfate and that chrome tanned leather is made with Chromium Sulfate. So No offense but this isnt going to destroy leather. I have a few pieces one of them Im wearing now and will continue to wear to see if anything does happen but the fact that sulfate is used in some tanning processes means that sulfate will not destroy leathers.

[Johanna]

Vegetable tanned leather and chrome tanned leather will react to chemicals differently because of the chemicals that were used to produce the two different kinds of leathers. This isn't a very scientific experiment.

Johanna

[Des804]

Ok Fine I'm wrong then we live we learn. Looking more into it yes it is done differently I am just going by what I read on the process of making chrome leather. The pieces I have made still look good if they Rot they rot if they dont they dont. I'll just use dyes and stains a lot more easier and less hassle figuring out.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Des804

[wintermte]

I've been looking for a way to produce the mixture that is being produced by the vinegar and rusty metal (without needing the rusty metal, since I can't seem to get my hands on any at the moment), and have run across some threads on book binding that seem to indicate they use this the iron sulfate to stain leather book bindings black. Seems that this has been used for a very long time.

I also came across this thread http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=4403 on a wood turners web site. The post from Bob Chapman starting with "You're joking..." talks about the chemistry of the vinegar and steel mixture, and he indicates that the the mixture is just producing iron acetate, which is more or less a weaker form of iron sulfate. So wouldn't a diluted iron sulfate mixture used on leather and then neutralized with the baking soda compound mentioned in the original vinegaroon post be pretty much the same thing as the vinegar + rusty metal mixture?

Des804, how has the pieces you have treated this way held up thus far? I know it has only been a couple of months, but I'm still interested.

[MADMAX22]

Whoops nevermind, you had the info in the link you posted.

Edited June 30, 2009 by MADMAX22

[ChuckBurrows]

I've been looking for a way to produce the mixture that is being produced by the vinegar and rusty metal

1) there is ABSOLUTLEY no need for rusty metal - just plain non-stainless iron (plain od steel woold degreased works fine) is all that is needed - when used on wood rusty iron will turn it more red than brown on certain wooods such as maple, but on leather it has if anything an adverse effect when black is desired............

2) Ferric sulfate is NOT just a weak form of ferric acetate - they are two completely different compounds. One could also say that ferric acetate is nothing more than a weaker solution of ferric nitrate - both of which I have used on wood, and on wood I prefer the FN, but I will NEVER use the ferric nitrate on leather since it takes a heat of over 300° F to off gas the nitrate which would ruin leather, whereas FA takes NO heat to off gas and leaves no residual problems when applied and "neutralized" properly (mostly the "neutralization", a poor choice of words perhaps, is for aiding in the darkening and removing any odor of which there is little if any when a FA batch is left to "cook" long enough.

FWIW - I DO NOT not claim to be an expert by any means, but I'm still scratching my head over why folks are making this so "difficult".

I started using this mix about 40 years ago on leather after finding mention of it in pre-1900 and older leather manuals - to make sure of what I was doing I consulted a professional chemist who had long term experience in the leather trade.........

With all due respect to Mr. Chapman and others - What works on wood DOES NOT directly transfer to leather - and yes I read the link and have NEVER had the problems stated by some when making/using vinegar black. After much research I found that while FS may not effect your leather today or even tomorrow there is a VERY good reason that museums all over the world make all attempts possible to prevent sulphate/sulphur contamination in veg/bark tan leather......and yes your first mix will and should take two to three weeks minimum to be ready to use, but once ready it is just a matter of starting another batch so one never runs out.......like a good sourdough starter my "original" batch is now 15 years old........

Oh well - do as you will and good luck.............

[wintermte]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to understand and learn, that’s all. I unfortunately don't have anyone outside of this forum to consult with about this stuff. That's why I ask.

I didn't realize the steel wool worked for this. Since reading this I've gone ahead and started my first batch. Does the kind of vinegar matter? I had some apple cider vinegar in the house already so I used that for my batch, but if there is something better I can restart it with that.

Thanks

Dan

[ChuckBurrows]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to understand and learn, that’s all. I unfortunately don't have anyone outside of this forum to consult with about this stuff. That's why I ask.

I didn't realize the steel wool worked for this. Since reading this I've gone ahead and started my first batch. Does the kind of vinegar matter? I had some apple cider vinegar in the house already so I used that for my batch, but if there is something better I can restart it with that.

Thanks

Dan

Howdy Dan - sorry if I sounded a bit ppevis - I lost a good freind yesterday and was a bit in my cups when I replied.

Any vinegar will work fine - myself I prefer apple cider vinegar because it smells good and is a good tonic for what ails you when mixed a tablespoon or two in a mug (beaker for our Brit Friends!) of hot water with some honey...........