Artisan Toro 3000 vs Aerostitch vs Adler 205

[Red744T]

Hi, from the previous thread in the for sale section, I am wondering if anyone has any input on the above three machines for a beginner. I search the forum and there are quite a few positive reviews on the Toro 3000 but it seems that the Adler 205, despite being older, can be just a trouble free as a newer machine. I didn't find that much information on the Aerostitch other than that it's pneumatic and is no longer in production.

I've been praticing on a Brother 797 on and off for a few month. It came with a manual so I was able to adjust the timing and solve the problem of needle breakage during reverse, but I can't get enough upper tension with heavier threads so while the treads looks good on the upper side, the bottom side is a bit ugly. I also can not get the 797 to work reliably with 207 thread, the max is 138. Per reading the forum, I swapped out the clutch motor for a servo motor and it has drastically improved the controllability of the machine.

Anyway, I want to start with simple flat leather projects, ie mouse pads, and progress to simple cased works, ie knife/key/cigar cases so I'm thinking about getting a clyinder arm machine for the versatility and also to use heavier threads. As much as I like to tinker with the Brother, sometimes I just want to sew without having to wonder if the ugly tread is a matter of technique or machine.

I already have a good size air compressor for the foil stamping machines so air supply for the Aerostitch will not be a problem.

Any suggestions on the above three machines? or something else completely?

Thanks,

John

[esantoro]

Hi, from the previous thread in the for sale section, I am wondering if anyone has any input on the above three machines for a beginner. I search the forum and there are quite a few positive reviews on the Toro 3000 but it seems that the Adler 205, despite being older, can be just a trouble free as a newer machine. I didn't find that much information on the Aerostitch other than that it's pneumatic and is no longer in production.

I've been praticing on a Brother 797 on and off for a few month. It came with a manual so I was able to adjust the timing and solve the problem of needle breakage during reverse, but I can't get enough upper tension with heavier threads so while the treads looks good on the upper side, the bottom side is a bit ugly. I also can not get the 797 to work reliably with 207 thread, the max is 138. Per reading the forum, I swapped out the clutch motor for a servo motor and it has drastically improved the controllability of the machine.

Anyway, I want to start with simple flat leather projects, ie mouse pads, and progress to simple cased works, ie knife/key/cigar cases so I'm thinking about getting a clyinder arm machine for the versatility and also to use heavier threads. As much as I like to tinker with the Brother, sometimes I just want to sew without having to wonder if the ugly tread is a matter of technique or machine.

I already have a good size air compressor for the foil stamping machines so air supply for the Aerostitch will not be a problem.

Any suggestions on the above three machines? or something else completely?

Thanks,

John

The availability of affordable and effective attachments such as flat and raised needle plates and various presser feet from a variety of manufacturers and distributors should be a factor in a machine purchase.

IT seems that the 441 clones should be the choice in this regard. The Colt machines in Australia seem to have some nice presser feet not available here in the U.S. but I bet they'd work fine on the 441 clones we have here. But I would have to assume that 100 percent compatibility can be taken for granted. Or can it?

Ed

[Kevin]

If I were buying another machine, I would check out the length of the needles. I have an Adler and mainly do repairs. The needles are so long, if you're off just a little bit, the needle gets bent or broken. A shorter needle could force its way through, but the long needle has so much leverage against it, it just can't take it. When I had a Campbell, I would use the same needle and awl for a month, a lot of times, with the Adler, I'm lucky to get through half an hour. They could give you the machine and sell you the needles and still make a nice profit. Other than that, it is a pretty reliable machine.

Good Luck,

Kevin

[tonyc1]

What do you repair, Kevin?. I use mine every day for repairs and new gear and I don't reckon I've broken 20 needles in 12 years. I use from 160 to 230 and have no trouble.

Tony.

[esantoro]

If I were buying another machine, I would check out the length of the needles. I have an Adler and mainly do repairs. The needles are so long, if you're off just a little bit, the needle gets bent or broken. A shorter needle could force its way through, but the long needle has so much leverage against it, it just can't take it. When I had a Campbell, I would use the same needle and awl for a month, a lot of times, with the Adler, I'm lucky to get through half an hour. They could give you the machine and sell you the needles and still make a nice profit. Other than that, it is a pretty reliable machine.

Good Luck,

Kevin

I've noticed this same problem with my 441 with #25 needles and smaller. The problem appears to be much diminished with a #26 needle. In hindsight , this appears obvious. Earlier I had been allowing desired thread size to be a more important factor than a needle size better suited for the type and thickness of leather I'm working with.

Ed

[tonyc1]

I've noticed this same problem with my 441 with #25 needles and smaller. The problem appears to be much diminished with a #26 needle. In hindsight , this appears obvious. Earlier I had been allowing desired thread size to be a more important factor than a needle size better suited for the type and thickness of leather I'm working with.

Ed

I read what you said about the diff in size of bobbins, Ed and I measured the ones that came with my 205 and I measured the bobbins that would be at least 50 years or more old that I used in the Singer 7-5 and they are identical. Standards must have been a lot tighter than they are now.

Tony.

[cheneycustom]

John, I can't tell you what machine you need, but I bought my aerostitch about 10 years ago when I started building saddles. It was great to learn on and it still runs great. Its simple to operate and if it does get acting up its usually just a little dirty. Theres not much for adjustments and no timing to worry about, Tippmann has all the parts and they're real good to ship things fast. I run 346 or 277 on saddles, and 138 on chaps and headstalls with a half turn on the tension and a smaller needle. Plus I'm pretty sure it was made right here in the USA. Heres my shameless plug I've put mine up for sale after getting an old needle and awl machine http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14218 I'm open to offers. Let me know if you need anything.

Chris

Edited April 2, 2009 by cheneycustom

[IHL]

In response to Kevin's posting.

You cannot compare the Adler or 441 clone to the Randall, Campbell or Landis. The Adler is a Needle machine and the needle has to do all the work and that is why the needles are larger than the needles of an awl machine of the same size. It takes a tremendous amount of force to go thru some thick leather with a needle machine as opposed to a needle / awl machine. The other machines the awl makes the hole and needle comes up thru it. If you do not have the correct needle in the Adler for what you are going to be using it for you will land up with problems that you have stated. An example of trying to sew 5/8'' hard leather with a leather needle that is sized for # 138 thread. I have run a Juki Pro 2000 for ten years without a single problem and bought an new Adler 205-370 for a back-up just in case, and have never needed it. I also run 4 x landis 3, 4 x randall's and 3 x straight needles, so i am very familar on how all these machines work.

Regards

Edited April 2, 2009 by 525brwn

[tonyc1]

The Juki Pro 2000 uses the same needles as the Adler though, doesn't it?

Tony.

[joppstack]

Just a short reply on the Adler 205 performance. I have had one for about 10 years now. It is used everyday for a wide variety of uses. Lots of repairs, custom items etc.. I sew leather, nylon , felt, fleece etc.. In ten years I have had no problems at all. Very rarely have I ever broken a needle. I have a very busy shop and this machine is used alot.. 6 days a week. Weaver leather sells all the parts and accessories if the need arises. What I like the best is the fact I can sew thin leather, thick leather (several layers of skirting) and nylon with virtually no adjustments or changes at all. I also have other machines but in my opinion the Adler surpasses all of them in quality, design and durability. I know needle and awl machines are great at what they are designed to do but if you need one machine that can be used for alot of different things the Adler really shines. It has plenty of power, it sews very easily through 3 or 4 layers of 13/15 oz skirting leather. Needing something that can do more than this for me is rare. I know on another post someone said they are made in China but on my machine it says "made in Germany" in several places. Hope this info helps.... Neil

[bruce johnson]

It depends on which Adler. I had a 205-64 that was a tank. It did not have a center presser foot though, and the material was moved with the needle and a feeddog underneath. It was great for most applications, although I was limited for different throat plates. The place where I had trouble with it was sewing through two layers of skirting and tunnel loops for back cinches. There would be a little needle deflection on that thickness, never in the same direction from stitch to stitch and the bottom line was never straight. If the needle missed the hole in the feeddog it made an impressive noise as the needle snapped. That was my only complaint with that machine. The other versions with a center foot should do fine, or even the 64 if you aren't sewing really heavy stuff.

I haven't had an Aerostitch, but had a Boss that would do the three layers fine. That was mainly why I kept it around. I got a 2000 that will do the three layers without a cough and both lines are straight. Just depends on what you need to sew.

[tonyc1]

Neil, I have an Adler 205-370 for the past 12 years and it sews everything I put in it like you do and I've broken very few needles and switch between different size needles and thread nearly every day for diff jobs. I can repair dirty knee boots and harness that I just brush the mud off, with no trouble. It is used every day and has given very little trouble in it's life. Like yours, mine was made in Germany. If I could change anything about it I'd like the longer arm but it wasn't available when I got mine.

Tony.

[SteveBrambley]

The Adler 205-64, like the earlier 105-64 is a compound feed machine (drop feed and needle feed) and they is popular with leather bag makers because the toothed feed dog can be changed for a smooth, toothless type which does not mark the leather. The 205-370 is also compound feed, however, it is fitted with 'alternating' presser feet (walking feet if you like) which is better for uneven work, as the machine is able to 'climb' over any lumps; this arangement is now common to most modern machines, these days, such as the Toro 3000/4000.

I use an Adler 105-64 and an Adler 204-64 (flat-bed version), they are both German made machines and are exceptionally reliable!

Steve

[Kevin]

I'm mainly sewing halters and girths, using 230 needles and 277 thread on top. Every piece has different stitch lengths and thickness. I know the machine can't do anything I don't make it do. I've never had any problems with the machine, I just break a lot of needles due to their length and deflection. I would never actually compare a needle and awl machine to a threaded needle machine.

When I'm sewing, I'm generally doing twenty to thirty halters at a time and since there is no positive reference for stitch length on the machine it is all guess work and sometimes I miss. After 4 or 5 halters, I'll get a feeling for the stitch length and then I'll have to wait on some customers and it's all out the door and I'm starting over again.

Kevin

[Red744T]

Thanks to everyone for your input, from what I gathered, aerostitch can be more easily controlled in low speed sewing because it's pneumatically, ie one stroke of the pneumatic cylinder is one stitch. Where as the motorized sewing machine require finessing of the motor to achieve low speed controllability. I had quite a bit of problem controlling the momentum of a clutch motor when sewing leather with my brother sewing machine. It takes quite a bid of force to pierce the leather and often the momentum of the motor will carry over a few more sticheds because the machine stops. Though a servo motor has mostly sovled that problem. To be fair, I bought the servo motor from Artisan a few month ago and they were very helpful and friendly. Aerostitch prices are also generally lower, so for a newbie like myself there are two advantages for going with aerostitch. Also, Aerostitch seems to be able to sew through thicker material as well.

My choice is pretty much down to either a Adler 205 or an Aerostitch. Are there anything that a Adler 205 can do but aerostitch can't and vise versa? Aerostitch seems like a fairly good machine but I wonder why Tippmann discontinued it while keeping the manual machine in production. Given the price of imported machines, why wasn't Aerostitch competitive enough to remain in production?

John

[gnarls]

John: I cannot coment on areostitch, have not used one. But in our shop we have 2 Adler 205-64. And 2 Adler 205-370. All but one has been in prodution use since late 80,s. One of the 205-370 is new. No problems, very happy with how the sew.

[joppstack]

Just to clarify my previous post, my Adler is the 205-370..... Neil

[Art]

Hi John,

For one thing, the need for a reasonably healthy compressor limited the market for the machine. When companies tool for a run, they make a couple to a few hundred machines at a time, warehouse them and sell them from inventory; so they have a track record of the saleability of these machines. They just make a ton more money making paintball markers and fencepost tampers.

Art

Given the price of imported machines, why wasn't Aerostitch competitive enough to remain in production?

John

[Ian]

John, I have an Aero, not because it's my first choice, but because it's the machine I got. I've used an Adler, and if I could afford to, I'd get one to replace the Aero. Can't say there's anything wrong with the Aerostitch at all, and have used it for tons of different things. I just don't like the compressor noise, even though I have it in the attic with the hose running into the shop. I like the adjustment that allows you to sew a a snails pace if you want - makes it easy to place your stitches very easily.

On the breaking needle issue. I used to have that problem until I learned not to try and feed the work and let the needle do it. I still break the occasional needle, but it's always when I'm sewing something really heavy that requires both hands to support the work - then an accidental twist will snap the needle with a horrendous noise. It's a practice issue.

[Joy]

I have an Artisan 3000. I use it for sewing corsets and got it primarily so I could sew the trim. The reason I bought the 3000 was so I could sew heavy saddle bags if I wanted to. I also have the speed-reducing motor, but in hindsight should maybe not have bought it because I have a ton of machine sewing experience and I find it's too slow, even on the "fastest" speed. It has never skipped a stitch since I've had it. The shop sets it up to your specs so when you get it you can start sewing. I have adjusted everything on it since then ('cause I got them to set it up for sewing really thick leather), and it was easy to do. Joy

[Henry]

John,

I see you are still asking people about the Aero. I think you should call the designer at Tippmann and he will fill you in on most of your questions. His name is Al and he can be reached at 1-866-286-8046 (Toll free). He can explain all the features that make the machine unique. Failing that, you can call Jim Miller at the same number. He is my sales contact ever since I started selling the machines, which is 8 years ago. I sold at least 2 dozen of these machines (in Canada and the US) and haven't heard a complaint since. As to why they were discontinued, they made 1000 of them originally and then were going to redesign the machine with a longer cylinder. But the sales numbers did not warrant ordering another 1000 castings because the sales just did not justify the investment. They were selling hundreds of BOSS machines a month so it didn't make sense to put out so much money for castings when they could barely keep up with the BOSS production. That is what happened, it had nothing to do with the reception of the Aerostitch or the performance of the machine. You should talk to Ian (above) who actually has one of these machines; sold to him a few years ago by myself. Since Tippmann stopped then all the Chinese machines came flooding in at lower costs and amazing claims of abilities so in hind sight it may have proved a wise decision. All the parts and are readily available and accessories are the same as with the BOSS so they are available as well.

I hope that helps in answering some of the questions on this thread.

Thanks,

Henry Veenhoven

Toronto, Canada

416-231-1870