Artisan Toro 3000 vs Aerostitch vs Adler 205

[Red744T]

Hi, from the previous thread in the for sale section, I am wondering if anyone has any input on the above three machines for a beginner. I search the forum and there are quite a few positive reviews on the Toro 3000 but it seems that the Adler 205, despite being older, can be just a trouble free as a newer machine. I didn't find that much information on the Aerostitch other than that it's pneumatic and is no longer in production.

I've been praticing on a Brother 797 on and off for a few month. It came with a manual so I was able to adjust the timing and solve the problem of needle breakage during reverse, but I can't get enough upper tension with heavier threads so while the treads looks good on the upper side, the bottom side is a bit ugly. I also can not get the 797 to work reliably with 207 thread, the max is 138. Per reading the forum, I swapped out the clutch motor for a servo motor and it has drastically improved the controllability of the machine.

Anyway, I want to start with simple flat leather projects, ie mouse pads, and progress to simple cased works, ie knife/key/cigar cases so I'm thinking about getting a clyinder arm machine for the versatility and also to use heavier threads. As much as I like to tinker with the Brother, sometimes I just want to sew without having to wonder if the ugly tread is a matter of technique or machine.

I already have a good size air compressor for the foil stamping machines so air supply for the Aerostitch will not be a problem.

Any suggestions on the above three machines? or something else completely?

Thanks,

John

[esantoro]

Hi, from the previous thread in the for sale section, I am wondering if anyone has any input on the above three machines for a beginner. I search the forum and there are quite a few positive reviews on the Toro 3000 but it seems that the Adler 205, despite being older, can be just a trouble free as a newer machine. I didn't find that much information on the Aerostitch other than that it's pneumatic and is no longer in production.

I've been praticing on a Brother 797 on and off for a few month. It came with a manual so I was able to adjust the timing and solve the problem of needle breakage during reverse, but I can't get enough upper tension with heavier threads so while the treads looks good on the upper side, the bottom side is a bit ugly. I also can not get the 797 to work reliably with 207 thread, the max is 138. Per reading the forum, I swapped out the clutch motor for a servo motor and it has drastically improved the controllability of the machine.

Anyway, I want to start with simple flat leather projects, ie mouse pads, and progress to simple cased works, ie knife/key/cigar cases so I'm thinking about getting a clyinder arm machine for the versatility and also to use heavier threads. As much as I like to tinker with the Brother, sometimes I just want to sew without having to wonder if the ugly tread is a matter of technique or machine.

I already have a good size air compressor for the foil stamping machines so air supply for the Aerostitch will not be a problem.

Any suggestions on the above three machines? or something else completely?

Thanks,

John

The availability of affordable and effective attachments such as flat and raised needle plates and various presser feet from a variety of manufacturers and distributors should be a factor in a machine purchase.

IT seems that the 441 clones should be the choice in this regard. The Colt machines in Australia seem to have some nice presser feet not available here in the U.S. but I bet they'd work fine on the 441 clones we have here. But I would have to assume that 100 percent compatibility can be taken for granted. Or can it?

Ed

[Kevin]

If I were buying another machine, I would check out the length of the needles. I have an Adler and mainly do repairs. The needles are so long, if you're off just a little bit, the needle gets bent or broken. A shorter needle could force its way through, but the long needle has so much leverage against it, it just can't take it. When I had a Campbell, I would use the same needle and awl for a month, a lot of times, with the Adler, I'm lucky to get through half an hour. They could give you the machine and sell you the needles and still make a nice profit. Other than that, it is a pretty reliable machine.

Good Luck,

Kevin

[tonyc1]

What do you repair, Kevin?. I use mine every day for repairs and new gear and I don't reckon I've broken 20 needles in 12 years. I use from 160 to 230 and have no trouble.

Tony.

[esantoro]

If I were buying another machine, I would check out the length of the needles. I have an Adler and mainly do repairs. The needles are so long, if you're off just a little bit, the needle gets bent or broken. A shorter needle could force its way through, but the long needle has so much leverage against it, it just can't take it. When I had a Campbell, I would use the same needle and awl for a month, a lot of times, with the Adler, I'm lucky to get through half an hour. They could give you the machine and sell you the needles and still make a nice profit. Other than that, it is a pretty reliable machine.

Good Luck,

Kevin

I've noticed this same problem with my 441 with #25 needles and smaller. The problem appears to be much diminished with a #26 needle. In hindsight , this appears obvious. Earlier I had been allowing desired thread size to be a more important factor than a needle size better suited for the type and thickness of leather I'm working with.

Ed

[tonyc1]

I've noticed this same problem with my 441 with #25 needles and smaller. The problem appears to be much diminished with a #26 needle. In hindsight , this appears obvious. Earlier I had been allowing desired thread size to be a more important factor than a needle size better suited for the type and thickness of leather I'm working with.

Ed

I read what you said about the diff in size of bobbins, Ed and I measured the ones that came with my 205 and I measured the bobbins that would be at least 50 years or more old that I used in the Singer 7-5 and they are identical. Standards must have been a lot tighter than they are now.

Tony.

[cheneycustom]

John, I can't tell you what machine you need, but I bought my aerostitch about 10 years ago when I started building saddles. It was great to learn on and it still runs great. Its simple to operate and if it does get acting up its usually just a little dirty. Theres not much for adjustments and no timing to worry about, Tippmann has all the parts and they're real good to ship things fast. I run 346 or 277 on saddles, and 138 on chaps and headstalls with a half turn on the tension and a smaller needle. Plus I'm pretty sure it was made right here in the USA. Heres my shameless plug I've put mine up for sale after getting an old needle and awl machine http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=14218 I'm open to offers. Let me know if you need anything.

Chris

Edited April 2, 2009 by cheneycustom

[IHL]

In response to Kevin's posting.

You cannot compare the Adler or 441 clone to the Randall, Campbell or Landis. The Adler is a Needle machine and the needle has to do all the work and that is why the needles are larger than the needles of an awl machine of the same size. It takes a tremendous amount of force to go thru some thick leather with a needle machine as opposed to a needle / awl machine. The other machines the awl makes the hole and needle comes up thru it. If you do not have the correct needle in the Adler for what you are going to be using it for you will land up with problems that you have stated. An example of trying to sew 5/8'' hard leather with a leather needle that is sized for # 138 thread. I have run a Juki Pro 2000 for ten years without a single problem and bought an new Adler 205-370 for a back-up just in case, and have never needed it. I also run 4 x landis 3, 4 x randall's and 3 x straight needles, so i am very familar on how all these machines work.

Regards

Edited April 2, 2009 by 525brwn

[tonyc1]

The Juki Pro 2000 uses the same needles as the Adler though, doesn't it?

Tony.

[joppstack]

Just a short reply on the Adler 205 performance. I have had one for about 10 years now. It is used everyday for a wide variety of uses. Lots of repairs, custom items etc.. I sew leather, nylon , felt, fleece etc.. In ten years I have had no problems at all. Very rarely have I ever broken a needle. I have a very busy shop and this machine is used alot.. 6 days a week. Weaver leather sells all the parts and accessories if the need arises. What I like the best is the fact I can sew thin leather, thick leather (several layers of skirting) and nylon with virtually no adjustments or changes at all. I also have other machines but in my opinion the Adler surpasses all of them in quality, design and durability. I know needle and awl machines are great at what they are designed to do but if you need one machine that can be used for alot of different things the Adler really shines. It has plenty of power, it sews very easily through 3 or 4 layers of 13/15 oz skirting leather. Needing something that can do more than this for me is rare. I know on another post someone said they are made in China but on my machine it says "made in Germany" in several places. Hope this info helps.... Neil