What makes you describe a piece of work as 'well finished'

[jbird]

Quick thing from me I have never been totaly happy with any thing I have done and I don't if I ever will be, but to my point I put tags on all my stuff I think this a good saling point it shows a care for your work and that your proud of it.

Josh

[Suze]

back for round two -- this is probably going to go all over the place -- hang with me folks. (my best ramblings are just that -ramblings)

Ray, about the tissue paper, is there any chance that whatever you wrap in it could "stick" to it? I would hate to get one you your high end purses (yes I went to your website) and have a big hunk of tissue stuck to it somehow. or am I wrong in thinking that?

the care instructions are a great idea. maybe you could make little cloth pouches to keep it all together? Nothing worse than finding "half" of what you need to care for a product.

And I have noticed that most of the really high end products DO come with a cloth bag to put it in. for when it needs to sit in the closet for a time. Maybe a cloth bag and then tissue?

ABOUT THE "QUICK NICKEL VS THE SLOW DIME"

HAVE that $2500 pool cue case on the table, make ONE- showcase it - put it on a pedastle (really) mark it "limited edition" (they don;t need to know that your edition is limited to what YOU want to make. (well it doesn't have to be a $2500 one - but one that is significantly higher than most of the things on the table)

My Mom did crochet work for the dollhouse - she worked on what we called "Evelyn's boredom factor" when she was bored with a pattern she didn't do it anymore. (with 40 years of crochet books in the house - she didn't NEED to repeat if she didn't want to)

She always had something on the table that was in the couple hundred dollar range (big bucks for what we sold) Perched right over the display of the crochet that varied in price from a few dollars to about 60.00 with the mid range in the 20's We also sold a lot of things that were in the ONE dollar and under range. But each item got our full skills.

People would stop and "OH MY GOD" at the tablecloth and BUY the $20.00 doily. Enough of them and you have "sold" the $200.00 tablecloth, and in the rare cases of her SELLING the tablecloth.... well we ate goooood that night.

Yes, you have time invested in it - but getting people to STOP at your table is worth it. Otherwise in a group of like minded crafters you have nothing that "stands out" and draws people IN to the booth. They walk by - and in this day and economy You need that something "bling" to attract attention.

You can do this with set up and display as well. Example- we sold "toss pillows" for your dollhouse these were about as big as a cotton ball. One inch and a bit square. one dollar each. There were other places that made the same little pillows and made with the same quality. two for a dollar. Ours sold - theirs not so well. Difference? we put each and every one in a little plastic bag and put a hang tag on it and put them on a rack. Theirs - tossed in a shoebox and put on the table. you had to dig around in the box to see what was there, and they got dirty and grubby from all of that. Ours - they could see a selection right off. KNEW they were clean when they brought them home. AND they saved TIME at the show. When you only have a set number of hours to "see it all" rooting through a box for a 50 cent item WASTES time. ( it got to the point that I was using rubber stamps and putting "codes" on the tags so I could find all the "teddy bears" or Christmas quicker)

We started that business on a "knotted shoestring" but we still had bags for our items - lunch sacks with a rubber stamp "business card" on it. Displays that Dad found "somewhere"

ABOUT "QUALITY CONTROL"

Ray I don't think that there is a craftsperson out there that looks at what he/she just finished without looking at it and going - I should have done "this" it would have made it soooo much better. Sometimes you have to let the baby bird fly come what may. It is not easy to do. I know that I have a scad of stuff here that Mom and I made that wouldn't make it to the table for some little reason or other. (I was grumping one Christmas about not having anything in my dollhouse that Mom made that DIDN'T have a goof in it somewhere. I got a crocheted animal that year for Christmas with a note attached that said that there were NO goofs in it)

some examples of "goofs" the Christmas tree skirt in one room was supposed to be a cape.... the stockings had a hole in them from the finishing process. I worked around it and you can't tell - but you can't sell that either. A sweater has a "glich" in the pattern - It really doesn't show, but it is still a mistake. And if I know a mistake is in an item and I can't work it out It won't be sold. (I've been braiding string lately and I know there are some issues with some of them BUT - I want to cut this 8 yard string into necklace lengths and I can cut out the parts that are not well done - I reversed the pattern somehow - cut it at that point)

Boy do I go on or what. This is an intresting thread. Let's keep it going.

[UKRay]

I think the tissue paper should be quite safe, Suze. I polish that old leather balm and atom wax good and hard... good point though. I like the idea of the little cloth pouches. It would be easy enough to make up a bunch of them with instructions, 1 oz of Skidmore's cream and a duster and just drop one in each bag as it sells.

I think I'm going to get some little printed stickers to use on the tissue paper... a bit more branding never hurts.

The finish thing isn't easy to resolve when you know a job could be done better but I sympathise with the "quick nickel" approach too when making up what I think of as 'production line' stuff. Maybe there is room for both schools of thought - High dollar work and production both happen in my workroom and I bet most people are in the same situation.

You are quite right, Dave, finish and 'window dressing' are two entirely different issues but somehow they seem linked as without the quality in both quarters the end product you hand over to the customer seems somehow less of a thing.

I will post a few pics sometime soonish - but don't hold your breath! It will take a time for this conversation to sink in.

I'd really appreciate some sensible advice on those rivets, guys. I don't like the tubular things but I can't find a suitable alternative. I don't mind buying in bulk from the US if the end product is improved - anyone know what those fancy foot operated Weaver riveters work like? Do they use tubular rivets?

[Suze]

Ok Ray - I had thought of something and didn't really know about the tissue paper.

I like the sticker idea - and remember to play with the "folding of the tissue" see what neat fold you can put in it quick. and then sticker it shut.

and weren't you supposed to post pics of those 3 legged stools? Hummmm? >grin<

and I will - over the weekend post some pics of a "learning in progress" (as soon as I find out where the cat took the "crap braid" too)

It's not leather but I thing you will be amused by it.

making cloth pouches is really easy - you just need a friend and two sewing machined and two sergers.....chain them from one to the other and end up with a garland of pouches. (no, I've never done that before. why do you ask?) (just 300 of them for event tokens - one afternoon and a bunch of giggles later)

[JohnBarton]

I must say that the answers I got to my questions have surprised me. How can insecurity be an issue in this multi-faceted and multi-talented leatherworking community? Okay, I rarely post pictures of my stuff on the board because I don't feel it 'jumps high enough' when compared to the other stuff I see; but I failed to see that most everyone else is concerned about their products too. Thanks guys, I feel a lot better!

As this thread developed I had had a few ideas myself about ways to improve the look and 'purchase factor' of my work. Having listened to everyone else I'm rather less worried about the quality of the workmanship as I concentrate a lot of effort on making stuff as well as I can and already try to pick up on all the things that have been mentioned. In fact I already spend far too much time looking for problems!

One thing I have identified as a problem is rivets. I currently use hammered tubular rivets and wonder if there is a better looking solution. Tubular rivets always look cheap to me and tend to rust or discolour at the first opportunity. I'd prefer to use a machine to set rivets but don't know what is available - or affordable. I'm also unsure how a machine would cope with rivets that need to be set in difficult places.

Can't help you pal. Rivets are my bane. No matter how many sizes and types I buy I never have the "right" ones. Just today I am finishing a case - a sample for production and all the hardware is antique brass only to discover that the 8 rivets I need are not in stock EXCEPT for polished brass. As for looking cheap, I disagree on that and feel that it's the placement and proper setting of them that defines how they compliment or hurt a piece. I can't stand to see rivets that are set wrong or where the wrong sized setter was used and so the rivet has a small ring on it or the surrounding leather does. In one of the factories we deal with they have a custom air-driven machine that has a 50cm arm and can get to most any place on a case. I have never seen the equivalent on sale anywhere, they had it customized to their needs. For ourselves I had a custom manual spring setter built that more or less works although we more often end up just using it as an anvil to set the rivets by hand.

Aside from the 'build quality' I am quite concerned that the first view a customer has of my work leaves a good impression so I have recently invested in a big pack of plain white tissue paper to wrap individual items in before they are shipped. I don't care what the thing is, somehow tissue paper seems to add value - anyone got thoughts on that?

I have already gone down the route of buying in nice cloth bags for my larger leather items. They also add some perceived value. I'm now toying with the idea of paper or leather 'tags' and have just purchased a couple of shield shaped cutters from eBay to see how shaped tags look with my maker's stamp on them. Does anyone else do this?

I have mentioned in the past that I always include a set of care instructions with my leather bags and can say with some authority that these have definitely bought me in more business. They simply carry my name, email address, website and phone number along with some basic care hints. I wrap them around a jar of Skidmore's cream and a yellow duster and hold it all together with a rubber band - it ought to be a leather thong really I guess...

Anyone else got any ideas? Red tissue? Blue Tissue? Ribbons - I don't care as long as it works!

Packaging is really important but you want to avoid making your things look "too professional" in that the packaging should not scream "store bought" or "Manufactured". I study packaging all the time and try to strike the kind of balance where the packaging is elegant and sincere without being overbearing. When I ship cases we put them in a nice cloth bag with a drawstring made of the same cloth. Recently I decided to laser JB Cases on them. I have also made up little credit card holders (two pieces of leather sewn together and a little shorter than a credit card) where I put about 15 business cards in it. On the back of one business card I write a thank you note to the customer and call them by name so they can see it's not pre-printed.

I think that my next step might be to invest in a nice box. Again I hesitate because of not wanting to look manufactured and also I don't want to add a lot of cost to the cases that I may not really need.

I think that the tissue paper is a great idea. Basically I try to imagine my customers feeling like kids at Christmas and hope that the thrill of opening a box from me is like that.

I would stay away from tags. Unless they fill some need like care instructions I think that they take away from the look of the piece. In my old company we used to sew a small piece of leather inside the case with a clear window where we put the warranty and care instructions. This way the customer could have it there all the time. I should do that again.

One thing we did for one line of cases I do is to make leather key fobs with the tag sewn on them out of the same leather that the case is made of. These cases have locks on them so that's a nice touch.

Anyway, the right kind of packaging can really make people feel special about what's inside.

[Seth]

Getting it right. If rolled borders, then exactly the same distance from the edge as it goes around the holster.

With hand stamped edges, it's tough. Smooth transitions around the curves, or find a design element to let you transition between lines.

Well finished is a three-way street, to me. Edges: I do NOT use inks. They are beveled (2 or 3), re-dyed, sanded (150-180), wet and burnished with old denim. Then, gum and a steel burnisher--probably twice.

I use Fiebings oil dye, dried, rubbed with lambs wool to remove dye dusting (kinda polishes too). After stitching, a coat of olive oil; dry overnight. A coat of Leather Balm or TanKote.

The most important thing? The first thing they see is the stitching because it's white. It has to flow. In fact, I always bring the thread from the back of the piece up to the right of the thread that went down from the face. At first glance they think it was machine stitched.

I DO believe that hand made items do need to look like roller stamped perfection. When somebody looks at a belt or holster and can ask the owner, "Hey, that's hand made, isn't it?," it's a good thing.

THE most important thing is: Good enough is NOT good enough.

Seth

[UKRay]

You made a heck of a lot of very good points, Seth. I really dislike seeing a creased border that wobbles around the place and those hand stamped edges that don't quite meet properly are irritating - but sometimes those things just happen when you are making something. Do you scrap the hours of work you have put into a job and walk away or do you try to salvage the work?

I'm interested in your comments about not using inks. I'm not altogether sure what you mean by 'inks' can you explain please - do you mean edge dye?

Like you I try to pay close attention to edges as they are the first bit a customer takes hold of. The trouble is that spending so much time on them isn't commercially sensible - or is it?

Stitching that is meant to be white should be white - couldn't agree more. How do you stop yours from getting grubby during the finishing process?

Roller stamped perfection eh? Man you'd be a hard guy to live with but I'd like to re-sell your stuff.

Cheers,

Ray

Getting it right. If rolled borders, then exactly the same distance from the edge as it goes around the holster.

With hand stamped edges, it's tough. Smooth transitions around the curves, or find a design element to let you transition between lines.

Well finished is a three-way street, to me. Edges: I do NOT use inks. They are beveled (2 or 3), re-dyed, sanded (150-180), wet and burnished with old denim. Then, gum and a steel burnisher--probably twice.

I use Fiebings oil dye, dried, rubbed with lambs wool to remove dye dusting (kinda polishes too). After stitching, a coat of olive oil; dry overnight. A coat of Leather Balm or TanKote.

The most important thing? The first thing they see is the stitching because it's white. It has to flow. In fact, I always bring the thread from the back of the piece up to the right of the thread that went down from the face. At first glance they think it was machine stitched.

I DO believe that hand made items do need to look like roller stamped perfection. When somebody looks at a belt or holster and can ask the owner, "Hey, that's hand made, isn't it?," it's a good thing.

THE most important thing is: Good enough is NOT good enough.

Seth

Edited May 8, 2009 by UKRay

[Seth]

One thing I have identified as a problem is rivets. I currently use hammered tubular rivets and wonder if there is a better looking solution. Tubular rivets always look cheap to me and tend to rust or discolour at the first opportunity.

Why don't use use rivets made from real brass and nickle plated brass? They don't cost that much more. It's a good seller too. "why are your bags so much more than that table over there?" "Well, ma'am, I use real brass and top quality materials." SOLD!--usually.

(I always use copper rivets and burrs since I am doing 18th Century stuff. Some other folks use the Tandy tubulars)

[UKRay]

Good point, Seth. Sadly solid brass and nickel plated brass rivets aren't freely available over here in the UK, or if they are, then will someone please tell me where to get them from!

I'd like to find a 'machine set' solid brass rivet - anyone know where they can be obtained or what sort of machine they need to set them?

Ray

Why don't use use rivets made from real brass and nickle plated brass? They don't cost that much more. It's a good seller too. "why are your bags so much more than that table over there?" "Well, ma'am, I use real brass and top quality materials." SOLD!--usually.

(I always use copper rivets and burrs since I am doing 18th Century stuff. Some other folks use the Tandy tubulars)

[hidepounder]

One thing I have identified as a problem is rivets. I currently use hammered tubular rivets and wonder if there is a better looking solution. Tubular rivets always look cheap to me and tend to rust or discolour at the first opportunity. I'd prefer to use a machine to set rivets but don't know what is available - or affordable. I'm also unsure how a machine would cope with rivets that need to be set in difficult places.

Ray...I'm not sure what all you are using rivets on, but if the rivet isn't taking a huge amount of strees, maybe a Double Cap Rivet would do the trick. They come in various finishes, plain and embossed. I don't know if they are strong enough for what you need, but they're easy to set, iexpensive and are less unsightly (to me, anyway). Another alternative are Chicago Screws.

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/home/de...ture=Product_95

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/home/de...ture=Product_14

Just a thought.......

Bob