Saddle Fitters

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

JW, there was no offense taken. I guess I was just rambling on a little, war is one of those subjects I get a little nostalgic about. I always like to see yours and Keiths comments, as they seem to be along the same line as mine, with maybe a little twist once in a while. From what I have seen of your guy's work, you are putting out quality and astetically pleasing product, and that always deserves respect, a lot of people don't realize just how much work goes into making a good using saddle and making it look good at the same time. I always look forward to comments from all the makers out there. Like you said, a fella can always improve and learn, (even if he is older than dirt!)

Bondo Bob

[Tosch]

Saddlebag,

You are the first one here to answer the fees part of my question and I honestly don't know what a saddle fitting costs. Could you tell us the what an "average" saddle fitter charges in your area? How long are they out there? What do they look at and do during a call? It seems some people make their living doing this - or do they make the living selling the saddles and the fitting is just part of the package?

For what it is worth I have stumbled across this side http://saddlesthatfit.com/Services.htm that might answer some of your ??? in part. They charge USD 225 per horse and rider, and somewhere else they say an individual fitting takes 3-4 hours.

To my understanding the websites indicate their customer target group are recreational riders.

They sell used saddles from a group of selected factory makers, organize saddle fit clinics and offer a 3 day Advanced Saddle Fitting course for the Equine Professional where they ask the participants to first read : "The Pain Free Back And Saddle Fit Book" by Dr. Joyce Harmon.

Regarding their own training their homepage states "We've worked with industry experts, and studied equine bio-mechanics and history to re-discover the equine knowledge that everyone had before cars; when everyone depended on their horses for their livelihood.

It isn't simple, but it isn't rocket science either. We believe that with a little guidance and practice everyone can – and should – learn the basics of the 'scientific-art' of saddle fit. ..."

Tosch

[Saddlebag]

Going back in time when cowboys lived on their horses saddles were custom made for the cowboy's comfort with a tree that basically fit the horse, no custom fitting for the horse. The reason for this is the horse's shape is constantly changing both with work, idle periods, age. If we get paranoid about saddle fit then we have to be prepared to have one made every few months depending on the horse's activity, which is completely unrealistic. To answer the question regarding fees, since many of my requests are 30 mi. or more distant I find out what a taxi would charge and charge about half. I charge $35 for the session which lasts about 20 min. That's about on par with the what the farrier charges for a trim. Sometimes we just change the saddle pads as there is an inclination that thicker is better.

[daviD A Morris]

PS. David, how come you get a Master's in saddle fit and I just get an unknown something degree?

Denise,

Cause you already are a Doctor , and I should get masters before then gettng Phd in saddle fit Gotta do these things in the right order you know.

To Everyone else,

The question still stands: The PARASPINAL LIGAMENTS ? According to the SFT (Saddle Fit Technician), it is crucial not to bear any weight of the saddle on these ligaments. Now I am determined to find these paraspinal ligaments somewhere in a text book or anatomy book on horses, guess my books and the ones at the library just aren't big enough or I just can't find them. Can someone direct me to an anatomy book that does list them.

regards

dam

Edited April 25, 2009 by daviD A Morris

[Traveller]

Denise,

The only SMS saddle fitter in my area (west coast of Canada), Leslie McGill, charges $100 per farm visit. She has a couple of makes of saddles that she sells, and apparently you get your $100 back if you buy one of hers. She will also check other saddles you provide. I haven't met her but people seem to like her work (though her website could use a writer's touch... says a writer, ahem...). And of course she only fits English saddles.

Here's her website: http://www.thesaddledoctor.ca/SD/Welcome.html

A woman I know from cattle sorting and penning is coming by this morning with a bunch of saddles to see if something inexpensive fits my horse (gotta ride while I get the custom saddle order going!). She's just a horsewoman who said she'd charge me $20 for her trouble. She doesn't make any claim to fame other than she's put a lot of saddles on a lot of horses and has found she's had some luck.

Joanne

[Denise]

$35.00, $100.00, $225.00. 20 minutes to 3-4 hours. Sounds like lots of variety there, just like the whole area of saddle fitting...

[HorsehairBraider]

...snip...

To Everyone else,

The question still stands: The PARASPINAL LIGAMENTS ? According to the SFT (Saddle Fit Technician), it is crucial not to bear any weight of the saddle on these ligaments. Now I am determined to find these paraspinal ligaments somewhere in a text book or anatomy book on horses, guess my books and the ones at the library just aren't big enough or I just can't find them. Can someone direct me to an anatomy book that does list them.

regards

dam

I was curious about this too, and after checking could only find references to "paraspinal MUSCLES", not ligaments... but I don't know if this is one of those "sciencey-sounding" made-up terms, or if this is actually something that a doctor or vet would refer to. The sites where I found the term were suspect to say the least. Mr. HorsehairBraider will soon be home and I can ask him if the term is used in humans... we have about a million human medical books in the house but I'm not sure which one to look in, he'll know as they are his.

Of course there are terms that are just sort of made up, by quack doctors and the like, that are not identified by science and don't seem to exist in reality. It's at least possible that you can't find the term anywhere due to this cause; but if I can find it used in a correct reference to humans, there may be an equine equivalent. I'll let you know what I find out!

Edited April 27, 2009 by HorsehairBraider

[HorsehairBraider]

OK, this is what I've learned this afternoon: "para" means, "along side". So, saying "paraspinal ligaments" is the same as saying, ligaments along the spinal chord. Actual doctors don't use the term, so I had a heck of a time figuring this out.

So what about ligaments? I learned about those too... Ligaments connect bones to other bones (in this meaning, there are two other ways the word can be used that have nothing to do with the spine). So ligaments would be the tissue fastening the bones of the spinal column together.

Now we get to saddle fitting. In a horse, as far as I know these ligaments are covered up by muscle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I've had the occasion to see right inside under the skin, and I did not see any bare ligaments that a saddle could possibly sit on... but again, maybe I'm wrong, and I am happy to be proven wrong if someone knows better. Maybe one of the forum vets could chime in here about that?

Because the term is not used, and because (as far as I know) the ligaments are covered by muscle, I would be skeptical of the information daviD A Morris was given. I mean, it sounds cool and everything... but checking up on it, it does not seem to add up. I'll be interested to hear any other information about this.

[daviD A Morris]

HorsehairBraider,

Thats all the same information that I have been able to find so far. I'm trying to give the SFT (Saddle Fit Technician) the "beneifit of the doubt" and find the term paraspinal ligaments in an anatomy book. (also, if there are paraspinal ligaments I want to know about them) And like you were saying about made up terms by quack doctors and the like. If these saddle fitters are using one made up term, does that make them quacks, and how much of the other stuff that they are saying is just made up. I guess I'm just "bent out of shape" cause I saw this particular SFT do 3 very profesional appearing presentations to an audience of about 500 people (500 in total accross all 3 presentations) and everyone went away having soaked up every word she said like it was Gospel. Now don't get me wrong, there was lots of stuff she said that I totally agree with, but then other points she put accross as if they were know/proven facts with out doubt, and yet I can find a number of well respected saddlers and treemakers who would disagree with these points.

Anyways I'll just keep studying my horse anatomy at every chance I get.

dam

[Denise]

OK, this is what I've learned this afternoon: "para" means, "along side". So, saying "paraspinal ligaments" is the same as saying, ligaments along the spinal chord. Actual doctors don't use the term, so I had a heck of a time figuring this out.

So what about ligaments? I learned about those too... Ligaments connect bones to other bones (in this meaning, there are two other ways the word can be used that have nothing to do with the spine). So ligaments would be the tissue fastening the bones of the spinal column together.

Now we get to saddle fitting. In a horse, as far as I know these ligaments are covered up by muscle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I've had the occasion to see right inside under the skin, and I did not see any bare ligaments that a saddle could possibly sit on... but again, maybe I'm wrong, and I am happy to be proven wrong if someone knows better. Maybe one of the forum vets could chime in here about that?

Because the term is not used, and because (as far as I know) the ligaments are covered by muscle, I would be skeptical of the information daviD A Morris was given. I mean, it sounds cool and everything... but checking up on it, it does not seem to add up. I'll be interested to hear any other information about this.

HHB

You are correct in what you are saying. Ligaments connect bone to bone, so in a generic sense there are "spinal ligaments" - ligaments that hold the vertebrae together. Maybe you could could call them paraspinal ligaments, but really that would not be technically correct. However, I would see that "paraspinal muscles" would be a generic way of saying "muscles beside the spine" rather than listing them all. I guess it could be seen as semantics.

On the other hand, I have seen the YouTube video of this presentor and she is demonstrating the "paraspinal ligaments" at least 2-3" away from any bone. Since ligaments attach bone to bone there cannot, by definition, be ligaments 2" away from any bone. That is incorrect terminology. Whatever she is trying to demonstrate (and I don't know of a distinct anatomic feature there although I have looked in my books too) is "paraspinal" but isn't a ligament.

You wondered about ligaments directly under the skin the saddle could sit on. There is one - the supraspinous ligament. Supra = above It connects the tops of all the dorsal spines of the vertebrae. So as you run your hand down the backbone, the bumps you feel are the top of the spines of the vertebrae that are covered and connected by one long ligament. It connects to all the vertebrae from the sacrum forward to the top the withers, and then goes directly up to the back of the skull with "fingers" projecting down to connect to the neck and the rest of the thoracic vertebrae. The neck section is called the nuchal ligament, but it is part of the supraspinal ligament. This is why there is a gullet or channel between the bars or panels on saddles - you don't want direct pressure on the tops of the spines of the vertebrae, not just because you are damaging bone but because you can easily damage that ligament too, and ligaments are harder to heal than bone.