Saddle Fitters

[Denise]

I have been hearing and reading more about "Professional Saddle Fitters" lately and I must admit that this is a new concept to me. My questions are: What or who qualifies someone to be a professional (or non-professional) saddle fitter? Is there any regulation of the industry anywhere? What type of training do they have? How much they charge? Do they sell saddles too or is that considered a conflict of interest? We have quite the selection of people from around the world here so I wonder if it is different over in Europe or Australia than here in North America.

[barra]

Denise, you are delving into dangerous territory.

from Denise.

I have been hearing and reading more about "Professional Saddle Fitters" lately and I must admit that this is a new concept to me. My questions are: What or who qualifies someone to be a professional (or non-professional) saddle fitter? Is there any regulation of the industry anywhere? What type of training do they have? How much they charge? Do they sell saddles too or is that considered a conflict of interest? We have quite the selection of people from around the world here so I wonder if it is different over in Europe or Australia than here in North America.

I can touch on English saddles. Training is provided via the SMS leading to assessment by the City and guilds/National proficiency tests council

http://www.mastersaddlers.co.uk/

In Australia when it comes to saddlery, every man and his dog throws around the terms qualified, fully qualified, accredited and Master saddler. To gain formal trade recognition (on any trade) your Training must meet certain competencies via training provided by an RTO (registered training organisation) leading to a nationally recognised qualification.

Here is a link to saddle fitter training in Australia which I will research further.

http://www.warmbloods-australia.com/genera...ding_saddle.php

Your head would spin when you start to delve into all the Govt. regulations leading to gaining trade recognition here.

Barra

Edited April 21, 2009 by barra

[Kevin]

I was going to comment here, but this is such a deep well I think I will stay out.

But can I?

There are some excellent fitters.

But probably 75% don't have any more experience than the average rider, just more confidence. Kinda like some trainers, they've had one more lesson than you, so they know more.

Around our area, we've got more "expert" horseshoers, teeth floaters, and saddle fitters than you can shake a stick at, and that's not to mention all the other practicioners of various methods of magic and voodoo.

Humans have been domesticating animals for thousands of years and yet so many "discoveries" in behavior and technology have been made in the last 15-20 years. I'm not saying it's all BS, but a lot is, in my opinion.

OK, I'll shut up now, just be careful dealing with experts and masters, especially if they're selling something.

See?, I just can't get out of that hole,

Kevin

[Denise]

Barra,

I need to digest the links you put up. Some interesting statements there...

Kevin,

Could you/would you explain more? My perspective so far is that the whole idea of saddle fitters is much more from the eastern 1/2 of the continent and has been primarily from the English riding world. Do you know how the fitters in your area get their "accreditation"? Are there courses in North America like there is in Australia and the UK?

[Kevin]

The only accreditation that I know of is from The Master Saddlers Guild in England and in order to take their course, you have to sell tack and 70% of it has to be English made. That in itself is a conflict of interest to me, but I also realise that it is for protection and promotion of English saddlery.

Maybe Master Saddler can clear this up some, he is an actual Master saddler, I haven't seen him post anything for a while though.

Here in the US we throw around the word master a lot, to the point I don't think it means much anymore. It is supposed to mean you have been through all the ranks of a union or guild and we don't have that in leather, maybe they did in the big shops in the old days. Saddle Harness and Allied Trades was trying to do it for a while, but I guess that fell apart because you had to pay to be considered and that probably caused some disinterest.

Hope that answers something,

Kevin

[barra]

http://www.nptc.org.uk/qualifications/default.asp?area=128

Scroll down to

Saddlery Advanced Certificate Level 3 (4750)

Then open

Scheme Handbook. I think the competencies for saddle fitting are mentioned there.

FROM

http://www.mastersaddlers.co.uk/

Click on saddle fitting via the buttons at the top of the page and then fitting course via the buttons on the left side of the page.

The introductory course is aimed at SMS members, members of the British Equestrian Trade Association and some other equestrian professionals and it provides a two day introduction to the principles of saddle fitting:

INTRODUCTORY COURSE IN SADDLE FITTING

The Qualified Saddle Fitters course is a more advanced course aimed at Society members who have been fitting saddles for a number of years and who want to refine their saddle fitting to the standards promoted by the Society and approved by City & Guilds / NPTC. Once a Saddle Fitter achieves their qualified status they attend additional training seminars to maintain their knowledge to current standards:

QUALIFIED SADDLE FITTERS COURSE

The Society has a relatively large sphere of influence overseas and also runs courses for overseas saddle fitters:

OVERSEAS RETAILERS' QUALIFIED SADDLE FITTERS COURSE

US INTRODUCTORY SADDLE FITTING COURSE

I am yet to find or know of anything related to Western saddle fitters qualifications (or saddle makers qualifications for that matter). More research needed. I might start a new thread so as not to hijack Denise's "fitting" thread

Barra

Barra

Edited April 22, 2009 by barra

[Tosch]

I mainly ran into the term "Professional Saddle Fitter" when surfing US websites. The only American qualification/certification institution I saw can be seen here http://www.saddlemakers.org/id112.htm. Although they do not list a "saddle fitter" certification - saddle fitting is part of becoming a certified retailer - I seem to remember they had that , but I might be wrong.

In the German speaking European countries to gain formal trade recognition (on any trade) one has do to a apprenticeship (generally around 3 years). It is a regulated training/schooling. Most of the time is spent in the workshop but a good amount of time is spend in school where one gets the theoretical background. And it is regulated what you learn in the first year of the apprecenticeship, in the second, in the third - and of course you have to pass a final exam. If you want to become a master in your trade you have to work for a few years in your trade first, then go back to school - and of course take another exam. And to take on an apprentice you have to be a master in your trade.

But this applies to trades (saddlemaker, car mechanic, airplane mechanic,..). And not to the important but "small" (lack of proper term) area of fitting a saddle. I have not heard of a saddle fitter certification here. Although I could imagine that you could spend a day or two with a saddlemaker and he/she provides you with his/her own certification.

Or you might think you know a bit more then the next person and call yourself a saddle fitter, and when you get paid for it you are probably a professional saddle fitter....

[daviD A Morris]

I've also came accross the qualification SFT (Saddle Fit Technician). Where does one study for that qualification, who accredits it and just how good is that accreditation?

Can anyone point me to a book on horse anatomy that shows (or refers to ) the paraspinal ligaments. I watched a very profesionaly run presentation by a qualified SFT in which, amoung other things, she emphasized the importance of the saddle not apply weight to the paraspinal ligaments down either side of the spine. Yet my search through books and equiries with qualified vets, so far has not been able to find any reference anywhere to the paraspinal ligaments. It is as if there is no such ligaments - I'm Just curious, and trying to fill in my education, not trying to cause any controversy here. As others have said, this topic is a "can of worms" and can be highly controversial.

eagerly awaiting further education

dam

[mulefool]

There is a gal about an hour from here that has one of those computer saddle fitting pads. The way I understand it you put on the pad which has sensors in it that is somehow hooked to a computer. She has the person ride and it shows up on a screen where there are hot spots. She sells saddles, too and will take a bunch out along with different pads and play around with them to get a fit with no hot spots. I have talked to people who felt it was useful for them.

Do the English saddle fitters also do the adjusting of the wool in the panels? Or do they just describe what is wrong and then the owner takes the saddle to a saddle repair person? Chris

[Denise]

Interesting information coming out here.

The Society of Master Saddlers in the UK seems to have the most comprehensive courses. To take their introductory course in the UK, you need to be part of their organization or be another "equine related professional", so at least you need some background with horses to start. But their introductory course is only 2 days long, and a vet or physiotherapist doesn't come in with much knowledge of how a saddle is made or works. I have problems seeing how in two days you can understand saddles, horse's anatomy and biomechanics and how they all relate. You could learn some "rules to follow" but to really understand the why - I kind of doubt it. At least it is a start. To be a Qualified Saddle Fitter you need at least 3 years experience in saddle fitting (as an unqualified saddle fitter??) and be a member of their society or "qualified saddler or higher". So at least you need to know something about saddles to be official qualified by the SMS. That course is only 4 days and one for assessment. Their US course is two days long and other than "being employed in the equestrian industry" there is no prerequisites for it, though "Preference will be given to those who own or are employed by a business which is retailing saddles manufactured in the UK." You don't get Qualified from that course. However the Overseas Retailers Course will Qualify you. It is four days plus a day of assessment and you need to be recommended by a member of the SMS and work in a business that sells at least 33% of UK made goods. Conflict of interest would be a concern here I would think. The NPTC out of the UK (I can't find on their site what that stands for!) uses the SMS system as part of their criteria to become a saddle maker, but it is not a stand alone qualification. They recommend 40 hours for that section but it includes fitting harnesses, bridles and other tack. All this is English only.

The Australian one is more interesting. It is run by Horseland - a commercial enterprise. For $1200 dollars (discounted if you are a Horseland employee!) you can take a 2 day course (they say you need certain prerequisites but they are not given) - work for a year (unqualified?), then take an exam. You can take another 4 days (no cost mentioned) to get Level 2 qualification. What I find interesting is the quote

Be aware of differences between certified saddlery qualifications: Saddle Fitters, Saddlers or Master Saddlers. A Saddler or Master Saddler may not know how to properly fit a saddle. Ensure that your Saddler or Master Saddler is accredited or certified in saddle fitting as well as saddle making.

I guess I always assumed that a person actually making a saddle (not just a production line employee, but a real saddle maker) would know more about how saddles work on horses than a tack shop employee with a two day course subsidized by the company they work for. Conflict of interest? I would think so.

David, I think the SFT is given by the Saddlefit4life group that sells the Schleese saddles endorsed on the Australian site.

Doesn't sound like there is anything offically set up in Europe.

Is the American Saddle Makers Association is still going? What are their accreditation standards for a saddle fitter? Anyone know? So far it is the only thing around that might deal with western saddles.

I found an interesting couple of quote from a link from the Australian site here. This is a woman in the US who is fully "Qualified" from the SMS in the UK.

I was a long way down the road in this job and had already become a qualified fitter in the UK before I really began to get an inkling of how saddles work below the surface of the panel. ... Needless to say, the geometry of trees and the physics of load-bearing structures were never specifically addressed in my training as a saddle fitter, nor have they featured in any significant way in any book or magazine article I have ever read on the subject.

Hmmm...

I am thinking Kevin's quote might sadly be the reality here in North America.

But probably 75% don't have any more experience than the average rider, just more confidence.

Somebody, please refute this and tell me it ain't so!

[barra]

The NPTC out of the UK (I can't find on their site what that stands for!)

Denise. NPTC is the National Proficiency Tests Council.

Barra

[daviD A Morris]

The Australian one is more interesting. It is run by Horseland - a commercial enterprise. For $1200 dollars (discounted if you are a Horseland employee!) you can take a 2 day course (they say you need certain prerequisites but they are not given) - work for a year (unqualified?), then take an exam. You can take another 4 days (no cost mentioned) to get Level 2 qualification. What I find interesting is the quote

I guess I always assumed that a person actually making a saddle (not just a production line employee, but a real saddle maker) would know more about how saddles work on horses than a tack shop employee with a two day course subsidized by the company they work for. Conflict of interest? I would think so.

Not sure what they actualy teach in that horseland course, but having seen some of its students work, I suspect it just teaches simple answeres to complex problems which also has the effect of providing its students with great confidence. And as you and I know, once you get past the obvious things like " make sure that there is clearance from the spine" in the finer details it there is not always a simple answer. Of course I will concede that you can not always judge the quality of a course by just some of its students, some people study a course and then just go off on their own tangent anyway.

David, I think the SFT is given by the Saddlefit4life group that sells the Schleese saddles endorsed on the Australian site.

I've seen the SFT qualification associated with Saddlefit4life, but as it is used as letters after a persons name I was kinda hoping that there was some more "bona fide" substance to the qualification! Like from a goverment type institution not just from a saddle maker. And it may have, I was just wondering from where.

Denise, why don't you come round to my place and I'll set you an exam on saddle fit, and if you pass I'll award you a certificate that will add more letters after your name. Not sure what those letters might be. Next week I'll come to your place and you can award me master's degree in saddle fit.

Edited April 22, 2009 by daviD A Morris

[kseidel]

Such an interesting topic! Denise, I would like to refute what you have said and have stats to back it up, but the simple fact is that you are correct! There are precious few individuals that really know about saddle fit, and most of us disagree on many points. It has been said that the next world war will be started by saddle and tree makers.

The CSMA still exists. I do not think they have any criteria regarding saddle fitting for their master saddlemakers, and I am on their list as one!

Many horsemen have more practical experience with how a saddle fits a horse in the real world than many professional saddlemakers. In my experience, most saddlemakers do not ride much if at all! There have been hundreds of saddles made, both by hand made saddlemakers as well as factories, that do not fit any horse on the planet! The consumer is, unfortunately, at the mercy of the industry, and the horses, many times, pay the price.

Guess I got on my soap box a bit....

Keith

[Denise]

In my experience, most saddlemakers do not ride much if at all!

Our experience is different than that, Keith. Maybe it is because a lot of our trees go into rigs for working cowboys, but I would say a significant majority of our saddle making customers are riders with quite a few of them having cowboyed for a living at one time. Maybe they don't ride as much now as they used to (having to make a living in the saddle shop cuts into riding time) but most of them really know what they are doing when they are on top a horse. I still maintain that overall (there are exceptions of course) the best saddle makers are the ones whose backside knows the topside of a saddle very well. Using a saddle, particularly for long hours at a stretch, gives you time and incentive to understand how it functions best - top and bottom.

I think the Colorado Saddle Makers Association is still pretty active, but I haven't heard that they tried to put together any accredition process for saddle makers. I wonder about the American Saddle Maker's Association. Other than stumbling onto their website on occasion I haven't heard a whole lot about them, especially lately.

So it doesn't seem likely that there is any official accreditation or training for all these people running around "professionally fitting" western saddles. That is unfortunate in one way as it leaves the saddle buying public looking to find the occasional person who actually has something to offer them in way of information, but vulnerable to well intentioned people with minimal knowledge and lots of confidence, unscrupulous saddle sellers, and outright con artists. In another way it is quite fortunate, because if those of us who actually build these things can't agree on some basics in regard to how we want them to fit, then who will set up the accreditation process? The one who sets the standard, sets up their ideas as being correct. So far, we don't know who is right in the areas of discrepancy. That is why I am so excited about what the next 5 to 10 years will bring in the area of saddle fit. With the new technology available in terms of pressure pads, etc. we should be able to get some solid, scientific evidence on what works best.

PS. David, how come you get a Master's in saddle fit and I just get an unknown something degree?

[Fpotter]

intresting...... What qualifies you as a prof saddle fitter? How about more 30 mile circles in a month than ( im going to step out on a limb here cause thats what i do) Than 99 percent of ALL saddle makers in this country, More differnt kinds of horses than most have ever seen, A pile of used wool blankets that that have been stacked to the ceiling in the tack room and fell over and then more worn out ones chucked onto that pile. 3 generations of no bull---- punchers on your rear end since you were 5 years old, Having to rely on sound horses ( that most often do not belong to you ) for a living, meeger as it may be. These are what criteria I THINK should qualifie you! I absolutly love to build sound functional gear but i have discovered over the last 3 or four years since i started building saddles that their are per capta more uneducated nitwit saddel builders than there are hot shot horse clinicians. This may be a crappy view of this industry but most of the people that are considered the top in this industry are so far removed from wet saddle blankets that it is no wounder the masses are ignorant to the saddle fit questions. That is excactly why if you want to order a saddle from me and you ask ME what you need ill tell you to go find some one who THINKS they know what they are talking about and has a big fancy NAME, Let them give you an opinion. I build gear for cowboys!!!!

[jwwright]

Well, I will agree that there is no doubt in my mind that a person who has sure nuff made a living horseback has better insights into SOME aspects of saddle making / saddle fit.

I have probably made as many horse tracks as anyone alive my age (circa 50). I have made my living from the back of a horse all my life. The only time I have done anything else was to take a town job for a couple years in order to keep things solvent......and I was still horseback then more than most. This is not to brag, or boast, or participate in one-ups-manship.........simply background as to where I am coming from.

All that said, I will say as well that you don't need to have suffered a heart attack in order to be a heart surgeon. You don't need to have been a top NBA player in order to be a good basketball coach (in fact usually those guys are not good coaches). What is required is understanding of the essential elements of the profession, in any pursuit.

JW

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Ok, I am not saying anybody's right or wrong! I will simply say this, the way I do it every time, has worked for me. I make templates of the horses back, send them along with the specs for the saddle tree, to the maker of choice. When the tree returns, before I start, I take it out and put it on the horse it is being made for and make sure that it fits. It is much easier to tell when it is the bare tree. So far I have been lucky, only once have I had to add any additional material to get it to fit correctly, (this horse was extremely odd in shape, a cross between an arab and a standard bred!) Once I know that the tree fits, the rest is elementary!

JW and Keith, I have already been through a couple of wars, I am getting too old for that stuff. I'll just keep going along with what works for me.

Bondo Bob

[Saddlebag]

I do western saddle fitting in the broad sense of the term. The people I deal with are fairly new to horses and unfortunately look at the cosmetics of the saddle, buy it, use it and then wind up with a sour horse. All too often the saddle is just a really bad fit. I take several western trees with me as it makes it easier for the person to understand what I'm talking about. It's not easy telling a customer it might be best to sell her saddle and look for a saddle with a particular tree as oftentimes the first saddle has some special significance. I have about 45 years of riding under my belt, and a good saddlemaking course so I have a pretty good understanding of how the horse moves and what it needs. My rates are comparable to what the other services charge for a farm call and that's mainly to cover my gas and wear and tear on my vehicle. I haven't figured out if I've made any money doing this - maybe the price of a coffee.

[Denise]

The difference I see between Fpotter and BondoBob is their market. Frank is building for guys who really USE their saddles on lots of different (yet usually similarly shaped) horses and have enough knowledge of its function from practical experience to know what works and therefore what they want for their area. Bob is building for individual horse owners who want a saddle for this horse and who often don't know a lot. This second one is the market the "saddle fitter" goes after too, and the unfortunate thing is that if they do a lousy job, the owner probably doesn't know it. They believe their saddle is OK on their horses because a "professional" told them it was. So much of the information I have seen on the net about saddle fit is absolute garbage, yet I assume this is what these "professional saddle fitters" are telling people too. That's why we like building for cowboys. They know what they like and they like what we make. Simple. We are just getting more inquiries lately from individual horse owners and people who build for them because we are on the net, so I am trying to learn more about that segment of the industry.

Saddlebag,

You are the first one here to answer the fees part of my question and I honestly don't know what a saddle fitting costs. Could you tell us the what an "average" saddle fitter charges in your area? How long are they out there? What do they look at and do during a call? It seems some people make their living doing this - or do they make the living selling the saddles and the fitting is just part of the package?

[jwwright]

Bob, I certainly meant no disrespect by my comment, nor was I attempting to engage in a "war". I didn't interpret Keith's remarks that way either.

I agree with you Bob...........a fella needs to do what is working for him and his customers..........all the while observing and studying others. I learned long ago that there is always room for improvement and learning.

JW

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

JW, there was no offense taken. I guess I was just rambling on a little, war is one of those subjects I get a little nostalgic about. I always like to see yours and Keiths comments, as they seem to be along the same line as mine, with maybe a little twist once in a while. From what I have seen of your guy's work, you are putting out quality and astetically pleasing product, and that always deserves respect, a lot of people don't realize just how much work goes into making a good using saddle and making it look good at the same time. I always look forward to comments from all the makers out there. Like you said, a fella can always improve and learn, (even if he is older than dirt!)

Bondo Bob

[Tosch]

Saddlebag,

You are the first one here to answer the fees part of my question and I honestly don't know what a saddle fitting costs. Could you tell us the what an "average" saddle fitter charges in your area? How long are they out there? What do they look at and do during a call? It seems some people make their living doing this - or do they make the living selling the saddles and the fitting is just part of the package?

For what it is worth I have stumbled across this side http://saddlesthatfit.com/Services.htm that might answer some of your ??? in part. They charge USD 225 per horse and rider, and somewhere else they say an individual fitting takes 3-4 hours.

To my understanding the websites indicate their customer target group are recreational riders.

They sell used saddles from a group of selected factory makers, organize saddle fit clinics and offer a 3 day Advanced Saddle Fitting course for the Equine Professional where they ask the participants to first read : "The Pain Free Back And Saddle Fit Book" by Dr. Joyce Harmon.

Regarding their own training their homepage states "We've worked with industry experts, and studied equine bio-mechanics and history to re-discover the equine knowledge that everyone had before cars; when everyone depended on their horses for their livelihood.

It isn't simple, but it isn't rocket science either. We believe that with a little guidance and practice everyone can – and should – learn the basics of the 'scientific-art' of saddle fit. ..."

Tosch

[Saddlebag]

Going back in time when cowboys lived on their horses saddles were custom made for the cowboy's comfort with a tree that basically fit the horse, no custom fitting for the horse. The reason for this is the horse's shape is constantly changing both with work, idle periods, age. If we get paranoid about saddle fit then we have to be prepared to have one made every few months depending on the horse's activity, which is completely unrealistic. To answer the question regarding fees, since many of my requests are 30 mi. or more distant I find out what a taxi would charge and charge about half. I charge $35 for the session which lasts about 20 min. That's about on par with the what the farrier charges for a trim. Sometimes we just change the saddle pads as there is an inclination that thicker is better.

[daviD A Morris]

PS. David, how come you get a Master's in saddle fit and I just get an unknown something degree?

Denise,

Cause you already are a Doctor , and I should get masters before then gettng Phd in saddle fit Gotta do these things in the right order you know.

To Everyone else,

The question still stands: The PARASPINAL LIGAMENTS ? According to the SFT (Saddle Fit Technician), it is crucial not to bear any weight of the saddle on these ligaments. Now I am determined to find these paraspinal ligaments somewhere in a text book or anatomy book on horses, guess my books and the ones at the library just aren't big enough or I just can't find them. Can someone direct me to an anatomy book that does list them.

regards

dam

Edited April 25, 2009 by daviD A Morris

[Traveller]

Denise,

The only SMS saddle fitter in my area (west coast of Canada), Leslie McGill, charges $100 per farm visit. She has a couple of makes of saddles that she sells, and apparently you get your $100 back if you buy one of hers. She will also check other saddles you provide. I haven't met her but people seem to like her work (though her website could use a writer's touch... says a writer, ahem...). And of course she only fits English saddles.

Here's her website: http://www.thesaddledoctor.ca/SD/Welcome.html

A woman I know from cattle sorting and penning is coming by this morning with a bunch of saddles to see if something inexpensive fits my horse (gotta ride while I get the custom saddle order going!). She's just a horsewoman who said she'd charge me $20 for her trouble. She doesn't make any claim to fame other than she's put a lot of saddles on a lot of horses and has found she's had some luck.

Joanne