Saddle Fitters

[Denise]

$35.00, $100.00, $225.00. 20 minutes to 3-4 hours. Sounds like lots of variety there, just like the whole area of saddle fitting...

[HorsehairBraider]

...snip...

To Everyone else,

The question still stands: The PARASPINAL LIGAMENTS ? According to the SFT (Saddle Fit Technician), it is crucial not to bear any weight of the saddle on these ligaments. Now I am determined to find these paraspinal ligaments somewhere in a text book or anatomy book on horses, guess my books and the ones at the library just aren't big enough or I just can't find them. Can someone direct me to an anatomy book that does list them.

regards

dam

I was curious about this too, and after checking could only find references to "paraspinal MUSCLES", not ligaments... but I don't know if this is one of those "sciencey-sounding" made-up terms, or if this is actually something that a doctor or vet would refer to. The sites where I found the term were suspect to say the least. Mr. HorsehairBraider will soon be home and I can ask him if the term is used in humans... we have about a million human medical books in the house but I'm not sure which one to look in, he'll know as they are his.

Of course there are terms that are just sort of made up, by quack doctors and the like, that are not identified by science and don't seem to exist in reality. It's at least possible that you can't find the term anywhere due to this cause; but if I can find it used in a correct reference to humans, there may be an equine equivalent. I'll let you know what I find out!

Edited April 27, 2009 by HorsehairBraider

[HorsehairBraider]

OK, this is what I've learned this afternoon: "para" means, "along side". So, saying "paraspinal ligaments" is the same as saying, ligaments along the spinal chord. Actual doctors don't use the term, so I had a heck of a time figuring this out.

So what about ligaments? I learned about those too... Ligaments connect bones to other bones (in this meaning, there are two other ways the word can be used that have nothing to do with the spine). So ligaments would be the tissue fastening the bones of the spinal column together.

Now we get to saddle fitting. In a horse, as far as I know these ligaments are covered up by muscle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I've had the occasion to see right inside under the skin, and I did not see any bare ligaments that a saddle could possibly sit on... but again, maybe I'm wrong, and I am happy to be proven wrong if someone knows better. Maybe one of the forum vets could chime in here about that?

Because the term is not used, and because (as far as I know) the ligaments are covered by muscle, I would be skeptical of the information daviD A Morris was given. I mean, it sounds cool and everything... but checking up on it, it does not seem to add up. I'll be interested to hear any other information about this.

[daviD A Morris]

HorsehairBraider,

Thats all the same information that I have been able to find so far. I'm trying to give the SFT (Saddle Fit Technician) the "beneifit of the doubt" and find the term paraspinal ligaments in an anatomy book. (also, if there are paraspinal ligaments I want to know about them) And like you were saying about made up terms by quack doctors and the like. If these saddle fitters are using one made up term, does that make them quacks, and how much of the other stuff that they are saying is just made up. I guess I'm just "bent out of shape" cause I saw this particular SFT do 3 very profesional appearing presentations to an audience of about 500 people (500 in total accross all 3 presentations) and everyone went away having soaked up every word she said like it was Gospel. Now don't get me wrong, there was lots of stuff she said that I totally agree with, but then other points she put accross as if they were know/proven facts with out doubt, and yet I can find a number of well respected saddlers and treemakers who would disagree with these points.

Anyways I'll just keep studying my horse anatomy at every chance I get.

dam

[Denise]

OK, this is what I've learned this afternoon: "para" means, "along side". So, saying "paraspinal ligaments" is the same as saying, ligaments along the spinal chord. Actual doctors don't use the term, so I had a heck of a time figuring this out.

So what about ligaments? I learned about those too... Ligaments connect bones to other bones (in this meaning, there are two other ways the word can be used that have nothing to do with the spine). So ligaments would be the tissue fastening the bones of the spinal column together.

Now we get to saddle fitting. In a horse, as far as I know these ligaments are covered up by muscle. Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I've had the occasion to see right inside under the skin, and I did not see any bare ligaments that a saddle could possibly sit on... but again, maybe I'm wrong, and I am happy to be proven wrong if someone knows better. Maybe one of the forum vets could chime in here about that?

Because the term is not used, and because (as far as I know) the ligaments are covered by muscle, I would be skeptical of the information daviD A Morris was given. I mean, it sounds cool and everything... but checking up on it, it does not seem to add up. I'll be interested to hear any other information about this.

HHB

You are correct in what you are saying. Ligaments connect bone to bone, so in a generic sense there are "spinal ligaments" - ligaments that hold the vertebrae together. Maybe you could could call them paraspinal ligaments, but really that would not be technically correct. However, I would see that "paraspinal muscles" would be a generic way of saying "muscles beside the spine" rather than listing them all. I guess it could be seen as semantics.

On the other hand, I have seen the YouTube video of this presentor and she is demonstrating the "paraspinal ligaments" at least 2-3" away from any bone. Since ligaments attach bone to bone there cannot, by definition, be ligaments 2" away from any bone. That is incorrect terminology. Whatever she is trying to demonstrate (and I don't know of a distinct anatomic feature there although I have looked in my books too) is "paraspinal" but isn't a ligament.

You wondered about ligaments directly under the skin the saddle could sit on. There is one - the supraspinous ligament. Supra = above It connects the tops of all the dorsal spines of the vertebrae. So as you run your hand down the backbone, the bumps you feel are the top of the spines of the vertebrae that are covered and connected by one long ligament. It connects to all the vertebrae from the sacrum forward to the top the withers, and then goes directly up to the back of the skull with "fingers" projecting down to connect to the neck and the rest of the thoracic vertebrae. The neck section is called the nuchal ligament, but it is part of the supraspinal ligament. This is why there is a gullet or channel between the bars or panels on saddles - you don't want direct pressure on the tops of the spines of the vertebrae, not just because you are damaging bone but because you can easily damage that ligament too, and ligaments are harder to heal than bone.

[daviD A Morris]

Looking through all those links provided by Barra, Denise and others, there has got to be 100's of qualified saddle fitters out there. I'd like to see more of them share their knowledge here in these forums.

If any of you guys know some qualified saddle fitters please invite to this forum

dam

Edited April 28, 2009 by daviD A Morris

[shannaantrim]

G'day everyone,

I came across this thread due to a link being highlighted in my cPanel for my website. I have read with great interest this thread and just wanted to clarify a few things. I am the person who designed/created Warmbloods Australia and wrote the (I suppose you would call it) article about saddle fitting, etc in Australia. This web page was instigated by me being frustrated with the lack of information for correct saddle fitment, list of qualified saddle makers and fitters, etc. within Australia. I am a rider wishing to do the right thing by my horses, as are many others. My knowledge of saddle fitting and so forth is lacking, hence my interest in finding a so called 'qualified' person to assist me. The amount of available information and listings of people qualified in Australia to help me was poor. If you know Australia, it was a mate in Victoria who told me in Queensland where I could find somebody and it was only through word of mouth.

As stated on the bottom of my web page, "Please note: Warmbloods Australia is in no way affiliated with Horseland, Saddlefit 4 Life or any of the above mentioned companies." I am just an ordinary person that is in no way associated with the saddlery construction or fitment of saddles business...horses are my hobby, not my business (means of work). I started researching things for myself and listed the information I came across so that hopefully it could help other "Aussies" find the best solution for their problems with locating saddle fitters and understanding what it is all about. It was a great learning curve for myself.

The reasons why certain things are not expanded on, for e.g. further costs, what is involved, etc is because I just don't know. I have provided information that I have gathered from people nice enough to offer their assistance/knowledge. My concern for Australians, which is what I raised to some other people, is what happens to people that do not have Horseland in their area, do not shop at Horseland or do not have a so called qualified saddle fitter at their Horseland store? Where does this leave these people and their horses? Peter Horobin and Saddlefit 4 Life are starting courses in Australia, but again I do not have extensive knowledge on what they teach, how far abroad their teachings will go etc.

I would be greatly appreciative if the forum members of Leather Works could help clarify, expand, assist in making the article more informative or more accurate (feel free to e-mail me privately re: this topic). The more information that is available to people the better off their horses will be - my sole aim. I apologise if some of my so called quotes don't make sense...they're written from information I have sourced and not being an expert in this area might not make much sense! Again, any assistance appreciated.

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards,

Shanna Antrim.

mail@warmbloods-australia.com