Ground seat construction

[ccpowell]

I have another need to be educated- sure are a lot of them! What are your preferences between using a seat strainer vs an all leather ground seat? Anyone with long-term experience making and riding all leather ground seats? Do they stretch and sink over time? How do they hold up? I have always used seat strainers (now have built about a dozen saddles) but am interested in what others think now that I saw in an old thread that mentioned the all leather ground seat. Please enlighten me,

Chuck

[mulefool]

I learned to build saddles using a strainer plate but about 10 years ago I tried an all leather ground seat and that's all I 've done since. It seemed like it came together better and it was easier to get the shape I like. That first saddle gets rode alot and seems to be holding up fine. Chris

[ccpowell]

Thank you for the reply- would you mind elaborating on how you choose your piece of leather and how you apply it? Does it change how many pieces you use in your ground seat construction? I am curious to give it a try if you don't mind helping me out some,

Chuck

I learned to build saddles using a strainer plate but about 10 years ago I tried an all leather ground seat and that's all I 've done since. It seemed like it came together better and it was easier to get the shape I like. That first saddle gets rode alot and seems to be holding up fine. Chris

[Tosch]

Chuck,

you might want to try the search button - meanwhile this link might be of some help http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=4178

Tosch

Edited April 29, 2009 by Tosch

[ccpowell]

Thank you for the link- I do use the search button, quite a lot in fact, was just looking for as much info as possible. As I mentioned in the other post regarding "bulk", I had done quite a lot of research on the issue- Denise asked me to post it, and I did. I don't want to rehash things or waste anyone's time, just like to learn as much as possible,

Chuck

Chuck,

you might want to try the search button - meanwhile this link might be of some help http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=4178

Tosch

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I started out making my ground seats all leather, and have never had anything but, satisfactory results. To my way of thinking, a strainer is just a short cut. I hate shortcuts, if you take one, you miss a lot of good stuff along the way. The folks that have my saddles, all comment on how comfortable they are. I attribute that to making the ground seat all leather and being able to mold and skive it so it fits the person's posterior. I have saddles out there that have thousands of hours use in them, and there has been no detrimental sinking, or what ever.

Happy Trails,

Bondo Bob

[Tosch]

Chuck,

I did not intent to hint anything - just trying to help out a bit.

Tosch

[AZThunderPony]

That link really helped me alot. However, I have a newbie question regarding leather strainers and thickness of ground seat. How many pieces of leather would be average to build up a 1/2 seat ground seat and how would you stretch the leather strainer for a 1/2 seat?

Thanks guys!

;)S

Edited April 30, 2009 by AZThunderPony

[ccpowell]

I'm not sore, just didn't want you to think I was wasting your time- I appreciate the help,

Chuck

Chuck,

you might want to try the search button - meanwhile this link might be of some help http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=4178

Tosch

[Echo4V]

I have actually been searching this topic since I joined the sight. I would love to see a tutorial from a bare tree to a complete ground seat. There have been several discussions on ground seats but if we could get a tutorial that shows how to cut the peices and where to cut them from on the hide it would be invaluable. That is the part that is generally skipped over in the other discussions, although they do a good job of explaining about casing and stretching the leather and about skiving it to make a seat pocket, they don't really mention beginning the ground seat at all.

david

[AZThunderPony]

I have actually been searching this topic since I joined the sight. I would love to see a tutorial from a bare tree to a complete ground seat. There have been several discussions on ground seats but if we could get a tutorial that shows how to cut the peices and where to cut them from on the hide it would be invaluable. That is the part that is generally skipped over in the other discussions, although they do a good job of explaining about casing and stretching the leather and about skiving it to make a seat pocket, they don't really mention beginning the ground seat at all.

david

I agree here and if we could have a 1/2 seat version tutorial from bones to end product that would be helpful too..

Thanks in advance

;)S

[Echo4V]

AZ thunderpony--

This may not be exactly what you are looking for but you should take a look at this if you're wanting to build a half seat. It's from another forum where one of the members here posted a sort of blog on building his own dream saddle.

http://shootists.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2231386

Hope this helps

David

[AZThunderPony]

Thanks David,

That was exactly what I needed.

Much appreciated!!

;)S

[Echo4V]

Thank Don, He did all the work and documented it. I just shared the link that he shared with me.

Seriously though, you're welcome and I hope it helps and inspires.

david

[nobearsyet]

Wow, that was really informative, I will be refering back to that one a lot

[JAM]

Hi,

I've tuned in a little late here, but I'm in the process of building an all-leather ground seat right now, and following the pictorial "Buckaroo" tutorial that was posted online by Bill Howe - it's gone now, but I copied it out into a Word doc, and have attached the first ten pages (the ground-seat part) here.

The big difference I see is that he shapes and then thoroughly seals each layer of the ground seat before starting the next layer - the result is a ground seat that's really firm but still feels a lot more comfortable than a metal-strainer seat. It takes a very long time - it's not for the quick-turnaround shop.

Also he starts with a three-part bar-riser that I neglected to use - I contacted him with questions and he chewed me out for not following his instructions and using the bar riser , but then told me he learned to make saddles without the bar riser and a lot of leather-seat makers do it that way (I feel a little better now) but he changed how he did it and began using the bar risers because it made more sense. And it does - I'll do it his way next time.

Anyway, here is the document (the ground seat part) that was posted at www.buckarooguide.com. I hope this works - I haven't attached a Word document before.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Johanna
removed attachment pending owner's permission to post it here

[tnestes]

I have another need to be educated- sure are a lot of them! What are your preferences between using a seat strainer vs an all leather ground seat? Anyone with long-term experience making and riding all leather ground seats? Do they stretch and sink over time? How do they hold up? I have always used seat strainers (now have built about a dozen saddles) but am interested in what others think now that I saw in an old thread that mentioned the all leather ground seat. Please enlighten me,

Chuck

DALE HARWOOD uses seat tins. Would Dale take a "short-cut?????" The BEST makers use seat tins/strainers.

[JAM]

DALE HARWOOD uses seat tins. Would Dale take a "short-cut?????" The BEST makers use seat tins/strainers.

Just curious - how do you define "best"?

[Tkleather1]

Just curious - how do you define "best"?

I sure dont know the whole answer to that question but I think Mr. Harwood would be among the list.

[JAM]

I agree, Dale Harwood is likely one of the best, but there are many at the top of that list and they don't all use tin seat strainers. Each "top" saddlemaker does things his/her own way for his/her own reasons borne of long experience - things like rubber cement or contact cement for skirt linings? Machine stitching or two-needle handstitching? Tool the seat housing/cantle binding/horn cap on or off the saddle? Cut saddle pieces dry, or wet/case them first? And - metal or all-leather seat strainers?

It's insulting to many long-time outstanding saddlemakers to imply that only lesser saddlemakers would use all-leather strainers (because "The BEST makers use seat tins/strainers."). Thus my query "How do you define "best"?" Do the BEST have saddlemaking videos and so you've heard of them? (Yep, video saddlemakers tend to use metal seat strainers). If you haven't ever heard of someone, does that make them less than the best? Does not using metal strainers by definition make one less than the best?

Debating the pros and cons of seat strainer construction is really useful, but implying that there's only one right way to construct a ground seat isn't so useful.

Regards,

Julia

[Tkleather1]

I have never built a saddle, Hell I dont even know where to start I was just Verifying my standpoint on Mr. Harwood. I couldnt tell you even what "I" think would be the better of the two. I was just stating a point.

I would guess that an all leather seat would be more comfy, but all of the wood that I have ever rode have had a tin in them.

[bruce johnson]

Debating the pros and cons of seat strainer construction is really useful, but implying that there's only one right way to construct a ground seat isn't so useful.

Regards,

Julia

I sure agree with that, Julia. Kind of like a lot of things (skirt riggings come to mind), the strainers get a bad reputation because they have been poorly installed on production saddles. The fiberglass seat strainers are a really poor piece in a lot of them. Either type of strainer allows for clicker cutting and pattern skiving buld ups for consistant shaped seats. Whether they are consistantly good or consistantly bad I'll leave alone. I have sat in good strainers and all leathers, bad strainers and bad all leathers. The strainer will allow you to get closer to the wood. On a tree like a roper wide through the waist, that will be as comfortable as straddling a flat 2x12. Not as much of an issue in a narrow and thinner Tidwell bar in a cutter or barrel racer. A strainer and one build up piece can make those sit pretty decent.

The important thing is the shape of the seat. On the wider bars you can make a narrower seat by building up layers and shaping to pinch the peak. Even though you are further off the wood, you are not split. You have more contact all the way up your leg - more secure seat and you probably feel closer to the horse unless built up to an extreme. That type seat can be built on a strainer or an all leather - the maker's skill and experience has more to do with it at that point than strainer or not. Most of the time I use a strainer. I use Bill Bean's. I feel like I can use at least one less piece of build up, and being a heavier gauge they are strong.

There is some lore on building and shaping ground seats. I usually do mine in one sitting. I skive around the three sides with the crank skiver to get the rough skiving done. Rough up the grain side, apply cement and let it dry. Apply another coat and let it dry. Then I dunk the first piece until wet, dry the glue side, hit it with some heat, and stick it down. Do the shaping while the next piece is soaking. Rough up the exposed flesh side of the glued down piece and dry/heat/stick/shape the second. I was taught to do it that way in one sitting for leather or strainer seats so the leather would all shrink at about the same rate and stay as a unit. The theory was letting a piece dry and shrink, then adding the second piece over that to shrink at its rate would make them more prone to delaminate. Thoughts or experiences anyone?

[JAM]

Thanks, Bruce - Lots more techniques to add to my arsenal of resources and to try. What I'm finding with Bill Howe's technique (rough-cut, soak, and shape the leather pieces and let them all dry together on the tree, then take them off, wet and glue the first one on, skive and shape while wet, let dry, then soak with VERY thin contact cement and let dry completely, six coats of the thin cement, then repeat for each of the next layers), is that I end up with a three-layer seat that's hard as wood and waterproof, and shaped as comfortable as I can get it. I haven't been able to get my seats that comfortable when I use a tin strainer - but that's probably a reflection of my skills as much as anything. It's a longer process than yours, but I tend to dither about the shape, so I don't mind the extra time. I haven't noticed any problems with the layers drying and not fitting together. (The three layers aren't really three full layers - they are the strainer layer, a half-layer across the handhole, stirrup slots, and front buildup, and the final layer over the whole seat).

What I really like about the leather strainers is that I can put a slight arch into the entire underside of the strainer while it's wet, and that arch dries into the seat and helps maintain the stability. It also makes a little more airflow under the saddle, kind of a tunnel, that I cannot get with a metal strainer which arches in front but necessarily flattens out when it begins its curve down into the seat and up to the cantle.

[Steve Brewer]

Thanks, Bruce - Lots more techniques to add to my arsenal of resources and to try. What I'm finding with Bill Howe's technique (rough-cut, soak, and shape the leather pieces and let them all dry together on the tree, then take them off, wet and glue the first one on, skive and shape while wet, let dry, then soak with VERY thin contact cement and let dry completely, six coats of the thin cement, then repeat for each of the next layers), is that I end up with a three-layer seat that's hard as wood and waterproof, and shaped as comfortable as I can get it. I haven't been able to get my seats that comfortable when I use a tin strainer - but that's probably a reflection of my skills as much as anything. It's a longer process than yours, but I tend to dither about the shape, so I don't mind the extra time. I haven't noticed any problems with the layers drying and not fitting together. (The three layers aren't really three full layers - they are the strainer layer, a half-layer across the handhole, stirrup slots, and front buildup, and the final layer over the whole seat).

What I really like about the leather strainers is that I can put a slight arch into the entire underside of the strainer while it's wet, and that arch dries into the seat and helps maintain the stability. It also makes a little more airflow under the saddle, kind of a tunnel, that I cannot get with a metal strainer which arches in front but necessarily flattens out when it begins its curve down into the seat and up to the cantle.

I have been using all leather ground seats for 25 yrs.I was trained on stell strainers and they work if applied right,same goes for leather seats.What I am trying to say is use what works for you.You can ask a 100 saddlemakers a question and get 100 responses all different.Ita best to find what works for you .

Steve

[JAM]

What I am trying to say is use what works for you.You can ask a 100 saddlemakers a question and get 100 responses all different.Ita best to find what works for you .

Steve

That is the single most important thing I have learned about saddlemaking!

Thanks for encapsulating it.