Ground seat construction

[Tkleather1]

I have never built a saddle, Hell I dont even know where to start I was just Verifying my standpoint on Mr. Harwood. I couldnt tell you even what "I" think would be the better of the two. I was just stating a point.

I would guess that an all leather seat would be more comfy, but all of the wood that I have ever rode have had a tin in them.

[bruce johnson]

Debating the pros and cons of seat strainer construction is really useful, but implying that there's only one right way to construct a ground seat isn't so useful.

Regards,

Julia

I sure agree with that, Julia. Kind of like a lot of things (skirt riggings come to mind), the strainers get a bad reputation because they have been poorly installed on production saddles. The fiberglass seat strainers are a really poor piece in a lot of them. Either type of strainer allows for clicker cutting and pattern skiving buld ups for consistant shaped seats. Whether they are consistantly good or consistantly bad I'll leave alone. I have sat in good strainers and all leathers, bad strainers and bad all leathers. The strainer will allow you to get closer to the wood. On a tree like a roper wide through the waist, that will be as comfortable as straddling a flat 2x12. Not as much of an issue in a narrow and thinner Tidwell bar in a cutter or barrel racer. A strainer and one build up piece can make those sit pretty decent.

The important thing is the shape of the seat. On the wider bars you can make a narrower seat by building up layers and shaping to pinch the peak. Even though you are further off the wood, you are not split. You have more contact all the way up your leg - more secure seat and you probably feel closer to the horse unless built up to an extreme. That type seat can be built on a strainer or an all leather - the maker's skill and experience has more to do with it at that point than strainer or not. Most of the time I use a strainer. I use Bill Bean's. I feel like I can use at least one less piece of build up, and being a heavier gauge they are strong.

There is some lore on building and shaping ground seats. I usually do mine in one sitting. I skive around the three sides with the crank skiver to get the rough skiving done. Rough up the grain side, apply cement and let it dry. Apply another coat and let it dry. Then I dunk the first piece until wet, dry the glue side, hit it with some heat, and stick it down. Do the shaping while the next piece is soaking. Rough up the exposed flesh side of the glued down piece and dry/heat/stick/shape the second. I was taught to do it that way in one sitting for leather or strainer seats so the leather would all shrink at about the same rate and stay as a unit. The theory was letting a piece dry and shrink, then adding the second piece over that to shrink at its rate would make them more prone to delaminate. Thoughts or experiences anyone?

[JAM]

Thanks, Bruce - Lots more techniques to add to my arsenal of resources and to try. What I'm finding with Bill Howe's technique (rough-cut, soak, and shape the leather pieces and let them all dry together on the tree, then take them off, wet and glue the first one on, skive and shape while wet, let dry, then soak with VERY thin contact cement and let dry completely, six coats of the thin cement, then repeat for each of the next layers), is that I end up with a three-layer seat that's hard as wood and waterproof, and shaped as comfortable as I can get it. I haven't been able to get my seats that comfortable when I use a tin strainer - but that's probably a reflection of my skills as much as anything. It's a longer process than yours, but I tend to dither about the shape, so I don't mind the extra time. I haven't noticed any problems with the layers drying and not fitting together. (The three layers aren't really three full layers - they are the strainer layer, a half-layer across the handhole, stirrup slots, and front buildup, and the final layer over the whole seat).

What I really like about the leather strainers is that I can put a slight arch into the entire underside of the strainer while it's wet, and that arch dries into the seat and helps maintain the stability. It also makes a little more airflow under the saddle, kind of a tunnel, that I cannot get with a metal strainer which arches in front but necessarily flattens out when it begins its curve down into the seat and up to the cantle.

[Steve Brewer]

Thanks, Bruce - Lots more techniques to add to my arsenal of resources and to try. What I'm finding with Bill Howe's technique (rough-cut, soak, and shape the leather pieces and let them all dry together on the tree, then take them off, wet and glue the first one on, skive and shape while wet, let dry, then soak with VERY thin contact cement and let dry completely, six coats of the thin cement, then repeat for each of the next layers), is that I end up with a three-layer seat that's hard as wood and waterproof, and shaped as comfortable as I can get it. I haven't been able to get my seats that comfortable when I use a tin strainer - but that's probably a reflection of my skills as much as anything. It's a longer process than yours, but I tend to dither about the shape, so I don't mind the extra time. I haven't noticed any problems with the layers drying and not fitting together. (The three layers aren't really three full layers - they are the strainer layer, a half-layer across the handhole, stirrup slots, and front buildup, and the final layer over the whole seat).

What I really like about the leather strainers is that I can put a slight arch into the entire underside of the strainer while it's wet, and that arch dries into the seat and helps maintain the stability. It also makes a little more airflow under the saddle, kind of a tunnel, that I cannot get with a metal strainer which arches in front but necessarily flattens out when it begins its curve down into the seat and up to the cantle.

I have been using all leather ground seats for 25 yrs.I was trained on stell strainers and they work if applied right,same goes for leather seats.What I am trying to say is use what works for you.You can ask a 100 saddlemakers a question and get 100 responses all different.Ita best to find what works for you .

Steve

[JAM]

What I am trying to say is use what works for you.You can ask a 100 saddlemakers a question and get 100 responses all different.Ita best to find what works for you .

Steve

That is the single most important thing I have learned about saddlemaking!

Thanks for encapsulating it.

[TroyWest]

I agree with Steve's comment also. Dale Harwood does use a metal strainer. Ray Holes used to use a 2 piece metal strainer. Chuck Stormes uses all leather ground seat. All are highly respected and use the method each prefers. I believe you can have success with any of these methods. You can also make a mess with any one of these.

[Tosch]

As Verlane once told me:

As a customer choose the ground seat construction method you like - then find a maker who can build it.

I guess, that says it all.

Tosch

[tnestes]

I agree, Dale Harwood is likely one of the best, but there are many at the top of that list and they don't all use tin seat strainers. Each "top" saddlemaker does things his/her own way for his/her own reasons borne of long experience - things like rubber cement or contact cement for skirt linings? Machine stitching or two-needle handstitching? Tool the seat housing/cantle binding/horn cap on or off the saddle? Cut saddle pieces dry, or wet/case them first? And - metal or all-leather seat strainers?

It's insulting to many long-time outstanding saddlemakers to imply that only lesser saddlemakers would use all-leather strainers (because "The BEST makers use seat tins/strainers."). Thus my query "How do you define "best"?" Do the BEST have saddlemaking videos and so you've heard of them? (Yep, video saddlemakers tend to use metal seat strainers). If you haven't ever heard of someone, does that make them less than the best? Does not using metal strainers by definition make one less than the best?

Debating the pros and cons of seat strainer construction is really useful, but implying that there's only one right way to construct a ground seat isn't so useful.

Regards,

Julia

The BEST? Well, TCAA members would be a good place to start. As far as I know, they all use strainers. "Insulting?" There's no need to be so easily offended. People who are confident people in what they are doing are not, (easily offended, that is). Furthermore, if you look for something to get irritated about, you'll find it quicker among saddlemakers than anywhere else, so I've found. I could have gotten offended when someone stated earlier that strainers are "short-cuts." I didn't, though. I guess it's because I know how to put it a very comfortable ground seat using a strainer. I have room for improvement, and I admit it. However, I WILL continue to use strainers. And yes, DALE HARWOOD IS, IN MY OPINION, THE BEST SADDLEMAKER EXTENT.

Regards,

Ted

[steve mason]

The BEST? Well, TCAA members would be a good place to start. As far as I know, they all use strainers. "Insulting?" There's no need to be so easily offended. People who are confident people in what they are doing are not, (easily offended, that is). Furthermore, if you look for something to get irritated about, you'll find it quicker among saddlemakers than anywhere else, so I've found. I could have gotten offended when someone stated earlier that strainers are "short-cuts." I didn't, though. I guess it's because I know how to put it a very comfortable ground seat using a strainer. I have room for improvement, and I admit it. However, I WILL continue to use strainers. And yes, DALE HARWOOD IS, IN MY OPINION, THE BEST SADDLEMAKER EXTENT.

Regards,

Ted

I have made both all leather and tin seats, I have been taught these methods from Matt Ebele and Chuck Stormes (who is in the TCAA) for all leather seats and from Dale Harwood(also in the TCAA) for tin seats. I can get very close to the same seat shape with either method, the tin seat will be a little lighter, but the leather seat has a better feel to it. Kind of like comparing standing on cement floor all day to standing on a wood floor as with a leather seat. Another benifit to a leather seat like Julie mentioned is the slight pole or rise down the center of the seat, I see to many ground seats that are dead flat across the points of the cantle, this feels like sitting on a chair with your legs hanging off the sides. Putting the slight pole or rise in the seat not only helps with the structural integrity of a leather seat it also helps very much with the comfort of the seat. A seat properly shaped in my shop you can drop water any where on the seat and it will run, not pool in the middle between your pin bones.

I have taken a page out of all my mentors books and made it my own, I use a little knowlege from each maker I have learned from, I do not do anything just because one maker I respect and admire does it that way, I do it because I believe that is it the best way to accomplish the job at hand. Try to stay open minded and learn for everyone possible.

I guess the main thing to consider with ground seats is it don't matter who does it with tin or leather, do what works for you, if tin works for you go for it, if leather works for you let er rip. they are both just different ways to skin the same cat, there is no right or wrong.

Remember that a good seat is a GOOD seat no matter if it is tin or leather and a bad seat is a BAD seat no matter tin or leather.

Steve

[tnestes]

I have made both all leather and tin seats, I have been taught these methods from Matt Ebele and Chuck Stormes (who is in the TCAA) for all leather seats and from Dale Harwood(also in the TCAA) for tin seats. I can get very close to the same seat shape with either method, the tin seat will be a little lighter, but the leather seat has a better feel to it. Kind of like comparing standing on cement floor all day to standing on a wood floor as with a leather seat. Another benifit to a leather seat like Julie mentioned is the slight pole or rise down the center of the seat, I see to many ground seats that are dead flat across the points of the cantle, this feels like sitting on a chair with your legs hanging off the sides. Putting the slight pole or rise in the seat not only helps with the structural integrity of a leather seat it also helps very much with the comfort of the seat. A seat properly shaped in my shop you can drop water any where on the seat and it will run, not pool in the middle between your pin bones.

I have taken a page out of all my mentors books and made it my own, I use a little knowlege from each maker I have learned from, I do not do anything just because one maker I respect and admire does it that way, I do it because I believe that is it the best way to accomplish the job at hand. Try to stay open minded and learn for everyone possible.

I guess the main thing to consider with ground seats is it don't matter who does it with tin or leather, do what works for you, if tin works for you go for it, if leather works for you let er rip. they are both just different ways to skin the same cat, there is no right or wrong.

Remember that a good seat is a GOOD seat no matter if it is tin or leather and a bad seat is a BAD seat no matter tin or leather.

Steve

Exactly. If the seat is well done, it's well done...period.