UKRay Report post Posted May 18, 2009 You know how it is when you start out on a new course of action then reach the absolute end of your knowledge and there is a vast raft of stuff still to know... I have been struggling with this particular set of questions for about a week now and am no nearer a solution. I have been trying to make sense of needle sizes for my Highlead GA2688-1. Do I just need one size of needle (which would be easier) or should I have different sizes of needle to match each thread size? That was almost a rhetorical question, as, right now, all I really want to know is what durn size do I need to buy? FYI: I am generally stitching straight lines along two or three thicknesses of 3.5mm thick leather strap with either a #20 or #13 thread however I can't make either of those sizes correspond with US thread sizes. Is there some kind of a chart that would help here? My local machine dealer just told me I should use a #26 needle - I just checked and there are a range of #26 needle types - what type do I need? Does it matter? Why? The ideal answer would probably include a Schmetz part number - or even two Schmetz part numbers if you like! Help me guys - I'm losing the will to stitch... Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rdb Report post Posted May 18, 2009 barra posted this great pdf link awhile back. it'll explain the different needle types: http://www.visla.net/upload/acsses//SMN15_English.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted May 18, 2009 Thanks, Dave (and Barra) that makes a lot more sense now. All I need now is to understand how to choose the the right size needle and some idea how to understand the US threads / UK threads thing... I'm getting there slowly! Ray barra posted this great pdf link awhile back. it'll explain the different needle types:http://www.visla.net/upload/acsses//SMN15_English.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
torrbuidhe Report post Posted May 18, 2009 This is the basic thread size comparison - US > UK 138 = 20 207 = 13/12 277 = 10 346 = 8 Thread size > needle size - 207 top 138 bottom > 160/23 207 top & bottom > 180/24 277 top 207 bottom > 200/25 346 top 277 bottom > 230/26 Neil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteveBrambley Report post Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) You know how it is when you start out on a new course of action then reach the absolute end of your knowledge and there is a vast raft of stuff still to know... I have been struggling with this particular set of questions for about a week now and am no nearer a solution.I have been trying to make sense of needle sizes for my Highlead GA2688-1. Do I just need one size of needle (which would be easier) or should I have different sizes of needle to match each thread size? That was almost a rhetorical question, as, right now, all I really want to know is what durn size do I need to buy? FYI: I am generally stitching straight lines along two or three thicknesses of 3.5mm thick leather strap with either a #20 or #13 thread however I can't make either of those sizes correspond with US thread sizes. Is there some kind of a chart that would help here? My local machine dealer just told me I should use a #26 needle - I just checked and there are a range of #26 needle types - what type do I need? Does it matter? Why? The ideal answer would probably include a Schmetz part number - or even two Schmetz part numbers if you like! Help me guys - I'm losing the will to stitch... Ray Hi Ray, I always use a 200 (25) size needle, or even 180 (24) with Tkt 13 thread. I find using a needle much larger than that makes the thread look like spaghetti down a man hole! Also, I always use LR point needles, as I think these give the nicest looking stitch. If you like, I can send you a couple of different size needles for you to try. Steve Edited May 18, 2009 by SteveBrambley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Hi Ray,I always use a 200 (25) size needle, or even 180 (24) with Tkt 13 thread. I find using a needle much larger than that makes the thread look like spaghetti down a man hole! Also, I always use LR point needles, as I think these give the nicest looking stitch. If you like, I can send you a couple of different size needles for you to try. Steve That would be most kind, Steve. Can you also suggest a good UK supplier? Maybe Celtic Leather or Torrbuidhe have some ideas on this? (thanks for the help, Neil!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
celticleather Report post Posted May 19, 2009 Ray I read that pdf from Barra a while ago. Although I realised the obvious differences between 'round point' and 'leather point' needles, I never dreamt that there was so much technology wrapped up in sewing machine needles . . . fascinating! I use http://www.college-sewing.co.uk/acatalog/index.html for needles and parts - their range is amazing, so long as you know what you're looking for! Terry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
torrbuidhe Report post Posted May 19, 2009 I use College sewing as well, very good service. I like the LL point myself, although I got some D points for utility work because it's a more durable style. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteveBrambley Report post Posted May 19, 2009 That would be most kind, Steve. Can you also suggest a good UK supplier? Maybe Celtic Leather or Torrbuidhe have some ideas on this? (thanks for the help, Neil!) OK Ray, I'll get a few needles off to you tomorrow (Wednesday). I think all our needles come from Bogods, but I would guess College are as good as any. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted June 7, 2009 Okay - I have understood the 'thickness' measurement is either 23/24/25/26 or 160/180/200/230 depending on supplier Now what about the length. I have just purchased three packets of number 26 needles and they are all too short - what happened there? Nobody mentioned length! These are exactly the same size as the needles that fit my Singer 45K but they are too short for the Highlead. Could somebody please tell me what length should I be asking for (and how should I make sure I'm getting the right length as these needles came from a reputable supplier) and how does this measurement fit into the needle numbering/reference system? Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tonyc1 Report post Posted June 7, 2009 Okay - I have understood the 'thickness' measurement is either 23/24/25/26 or 160/180/200/230 depending on supplierNow what about the length. I have just purchased three packets of number 26 needles and they are all too short - what happened there? Nobody mentioned length! These are exactly the same size as the needles that fit my Singer 45K but they are too short for the Highlead. Could somebody please tell me what length should I be asking for (and how should I make sure I'm getting the right length as these needles came from a reputable supplier) and how does this measurement fit into the needle numbering/reference system? Ray Hi Ray. I think you need 794 needles. I got some last month and I think I may have got ripped off as they charged me $50.50 a packet! Tony. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luke Hatley Report post Posted June 7, 2009 Tony if you received 100 needles that is Right. i did send Ray a P M about the needle system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esantoro Report post Posted June 7, 2009 $50, Australian or U.S., does seem very high. I believe campbell bosworth has the 794 needles for just about $10 for a ten-pack. I always try to use 346 thread on a project, as I think the 26 needle performs better overall due to its larger girth, which is sturdier with thicker leather. If I move down to 277, I'll try it with a 26 needle on some scrap. If it's spaghetti down a manhole, as Steve says, then I will go down to a 25 needle. Also , some leathers take the puncture of the needle differently and you can get away with needle/thread combinations that won't work on other leathers. I like the LR and Serv1 needles, as I think they put down the nicest stitches. I've never tried LL, which I imagine puts down a twist opposite to that of the LR needles. ed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted June 7, 2009 Ed, I make that about $5 for a ten pack - not too high at all. Mind you, maths was never my strong point! Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esantoro Report post Posted June 7, 2009 It should be something like 5 or 6 pounds for you, yes. Get a good idea of what kind of needles you need, then invest in a bulk order with Campbell Bosworth. See what they can do on shipping. Perhaps a few of you guys over there can go in on a bulk order. I'd just stick with schmetz. I like having Serv1 , diamond points, and LR on hand.. The Serv1 and LR points when you want to get the closest to needle and awl quality. I'm willing to bet Campbell Bosworth will be good to you guys on the shipping. I've got an order to put through with them for some thread and a few packs of needles. For probably no additional shipping charges to me, I can order the needles you need and forward them on to you. I realized only about a month ago that CB seems to have the best prices on these 794 needles over here by about $1.50 for a ten pack. I've been meaning to ask what you guys pay for thread over there. Perhaps we can open up a trans-Atlantic needle and thread run. Make that trans-Atlantic needle-thread-brass lock run. Ed Ed, I make that about $5 for a ten pack - not too high at all. Mind you, maths was never my strong point!Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
esantoro Report post Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) Diamond Needle used to be in Manhattan but moved to New JErsey about a year ago. I have an account with them but am not a bulk purchaser. I think my price was something like 90 cents a needle. I almost got a deal of something like $5.50 for a ten-pack. I had received that quote and then got a call back two minutes later telling me the quote was mistaken. We might be able to go in on a bulk deal if we're willing to buy 1000 of each needle type. MIGHT is the operative word. I'd suggest Serv1 and LR. That total order would be about $1100 plus shipping. Maybe in these economic times Diamond Needle will be be willing to deal. I'm in for 200 of each needle type for myself. Ed Edited June 7, 2009 by esantoro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neelsaddlery Report post Posted June 8, 2009 Hello All: I believe the Singer 45K used the 214X2 needle system for leather. (also called 328 needle system). It uses a 214X1 for fabric. The Highlead mentioned earlier in this thread uses a 7X4 needle system for leather (also called a 794 needle system), or a 7X3 for farbric. There is no difference in the length of the needle between 214X2 and 214X1, or 7X3 or 7X4. It is just a way of designating whether the point is leather or fabric point. Hope this is of some help to you. Kindest Regards, Ryan O. Neel Neel's Saddlery and Harness Cowboy Sewing Machines (330) 692-1418 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJ1935 Report post Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Ray I thought you might like to see how your machine needles are made. I had no idea how much work went into it until I found this framed picture in our Museum. Cheers DJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKRay Report post Posted June 8, 2009 Thanks for showing the needle board, DJ. When you see the number of processes involved in making a needle you suddenly appreciate why they cost so much. I have broken a few during the past month or so as I learned how the machine works. Each time I winced and thought about the replacement cost. It has been ten days of hard sewing since the last mishap and, with a few big jobs under my belt, I'm feeling a lot more confident but I still don't relish spending hard-earned money on new needles! Ray Hello All:I believe the Singer 45K used the 214X2 needle system for leather. (also called 328 needle system). It uses a 214X1 for fabric. The Highlead mentioned earlier in this thread uses a 7X4 needle system for leather (also called a 794 needle system), or a 7X3 for farbric. There is no difference in the length of the needle between 214X2 and 214X1, or 7X3 or 7X4. It is just a way of designating whether the point is leather or fabric point. Hope this is of some help to you. Kindest Regards, Ryan O. Neel Neel's Saddlery and Harness Cowboy Sewing Machines (330) 692-1418 Thanks, Ryan. Most helpful. Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SteveBrambley Report post Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Ray, I think that the packet I sent to you, with the needles in, had the correct system details printed on the front. Steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
