Questions for the tree makers

[AndyKnight]

it will be interesting to see how your horse measures with the DL cards. By the pics I would expect most factory made trees to be too straight.( not enough rocker) . Other than that his back looks good as far pics are concerned .

[daviD A Morris]

...I once made a saddle for a woman, that fit her horse correctly. It was a 1/2 arab 1/2 standardbred. The result was a very mutton withered, downhill standing, horse with a short back. It actually looked like a halflinger, kinda. Well, at first I told her that after she tried a dozen different saddles on her, none fit, and her saddle shop was getting tired of seeing her come into the shop to return saddles, my first suggestion was to get a different horse that she could use and enjoy regularly without the expense of a new custom built saddle. That did not work and she had me make her a saddle to fit her horse anyway! ( I will never do that again!) ....

Bondo Bob

I've been in similar situations. One advantage of using Dennis Lane's back profiling cards is that now I can stamp on the saddle (on the skirts under the seat jockey) the measurements of the horse that I made the tree to fit. For example, a saddle for this horse would have something like " D8D9D10R6 ". As more and more people become familiar with the DL cards it can be easy for a prospective purchaser of a used saddle with that stamped on it, to know what kind of horse's back it was intended to fit. Now as people become more informed they will also know what kind of range of sizes that that saddle will also fit. That is, to make use of the saddle on other horses you don't have to find another with that exact same DL profile numbers. Just how far from those sizes you can go with a reasonable fit is still up for a lot of debate, and research, but at least at this stage, if I'm buying a used saddle that had " D8D9D10R6 " stamped on it, I would not use it on a horse that measured "S6S6S7R12", damage the horse's back and then try blaming the guy whose name is on the maker stamp.

Kelly,

Great photographs, it makes much easier to discuss these things when we can actualy see something.

Personaly, I am now shying away from correlating any particular back shapes with breeds. The more measurements that I now have using the DL card system the more I am avoiding the idea of "breed type backs". As an example, about 6 months ago I measured 2 horses with same owner, one was a welsh mountain pony, 13hh, the other a warmblood, 17.2hh and both horses measured D9 and D10 at positions "B" and "C". At "A" the warmblood had a higher wither than the pony. Both had R6 rock. They were both being ridden regularly in the same dressage saddle which fitted near perfect.

Appologies to those not familiar with DL system, for qoting numbers and jargon. This might help http://www.dennislane.com.au/

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

I agree with Bruce. Your little guy is cute! And stout! As far as trying to see if the dry spots are saddle related or not, all you need is something that won't put pressure in the same place on his back as his regular saddle does. Give the treeless a try. If he sweats where he usually dry spots, you know it isn't a long term problem with him. If he doesn't then trying something else will be needed as I wouldn't take one trial as a total conformation that he can't sweat there. You never know if there are similar pressure spots since often the pressure points are over a roundness in the horse himself. I would recommend staying away from the plastic though. I think it would act like the neoprene saddle pads that "relieve dry spots". They do this not necessarily by helping the fit but by holding in the heat so the horse sweats and since there is no place for the sweat to go except across the pad or down, it makes everything wet and then runs down the horse's sides. Looks like an even sweat pattern but doesn't necessarily tell you about the pressure anywhere.

Regarding dry spots, as far as we can tell, all there is out there is anecdotal information. I haven't been able to find any research at all done on the effects of pressure on a horse's back. Every measurement of pressure I have seen quoted, if I can trace its origins, is extrapolated from pressure sore studies on basically immobile humans. Nobody has ever tested how much pressure is OK on a horse's mobile back under a saddle, or how much pressure (over how much time - that is an important factor too) it takes to stop sweating, or disrupt blood supply, or cause swelling, or cause muscle damage, etc. etc. We just really don't have a clue. There was an article in the March 2003 Western Horseman where they interviewed Chuck Stormes, Dale Harwood, Steve Mecum and Peter Campbell. In a side bar entitled The White Hair Myth (page 70), they state "The experts interviewed for this story were all quick to say that white hair or dry marks don't mean a saddle doesn't fit. It could be a saddle-fit problem, or it could be nothing." Anecdotal, sure, but we have found a lot of people, especially working cowboys with a lot of hours on top of horses in a lot of different conditions, say the same thing. And we agree. I am sure it is never ideal, but I also don't think it is always a problem either.

[1horsetown]

Shorty is a chunka horse. After riding a very narrow horse for many years, he was an adjustment. He's just wide all over. His bridle has a 15" wedge to wedge browband measurement.

I'll order the DL cards today. I'd like to have the measurements in hand before I talk to anyone seriously.

It was a post by Jon Watsabaugh that popped up on a Google search that brought me here in the first place. I just couldn't believe there was a saddle maker that close to me. I will definitely talk to him if a 'hands on' session is necessary.

The area I live in is still in the dark ages when it comes to horses. They're ignorant and they like it that way. If it's labelled a QH tree, it will fit ALL QH's. If it's labelled an Arab tree, it will fit ALL Arabs. A Haflinger? Who the heck rides anything but QHs? Not saying those trees don't fit some horses, but they aren't a magic bullet. I'm not finding much support locally. I don't believe I'm going to find what this horse needs in a mass produced tree. The tack shop with the most saddles available is about an hour and a half from me. By the time I drive back and forth with saddles that don't fit, I'll have half the cost of a custom saddle paid out in gas money and babysitters.

When the temps go up next week I'll put the treeless on and try a sweat marks test. No plastic. I had wondered if it would help the results or hinder them. I was leaning towards hinder anyway. My treeless is lined with poly fleece, which is why I was thinking the plastic sheet.

Okay, trying to move forward.

thanks every one. K

[Tosch]

Early on in this discussion Denise asked about information on Haflinger. Nowadays they come in all shapes - form old fashioned draft to modern sport horse. Much more information can be found here : http://www.haflinger-tirol.com/english/index.htm. Hope it helps.

Tosch

[ccpowell]

I really like the idea of stamping the DL card numbers on the saddle- that could actually help even the production type saddles, or perhaps help people not buy one that won't fit- I think that I will start to incorporate that into my saddles in the future- it would allow the owner to apply something besides anecdote to using the saddle on a certain horse or conscientiously selling the saddle in the future. I occasionally am sticking my foot in my mouth on these forums, so I apologize for that- however I am learning tons to make me a better horse vet, farrier, and saddle maker. I really appreciate input from Rod, Denise, Blake, Tosch, JW, Bruce, Bondo Bob, and all the others who have followed up some of my posts and thoughts here. If any of you are interested in continuing to enlighten me as to saddle fit, rigging position, dry spots, correct saddle building, etc. then perhaps I can be a liason to the AAEP regarding the quality western saddle fit side of the story. I would also love to hear from those who spend a lot of time in the saddle as well as building them as to their take on the dry spot issue. Sorry for getting off subject on your thread here, but I hope the discussion has helped,

Chuck

[jwwright]

Chuck, I don't necessarily get excited about dry spots. I have spent most of my days riding lots of different horses each day, with maybe 2 or 3 saddles in the tack room. Not always gong to find that perfect fit. If there is no swelling, and the horse is not sore, then dry spots don't bother me. As someone else mentioned previously........it also depends on what you are doing riding that saddle / horse. The saddle I ride my stud horse with fits him great. If you get on and cruise around the country looking at cattle, or work on some dry work in the arena, the sweat pattern will be perfect. If, like I did this morning, though.......you spend some time roping some fast cattle.......up and down in the saddle, leaning this way and that, you know how it goes..............then the hair was a bit ruffled and little drier in the wither pocket area. Just my opinion. JW

[ccpowell]

Thank you for the experience- that is what I have found as well. When I am training reiners, working on turns and rollbacks, I find the same thing- dry and ruffled in the wither pocket area. I have been out riding big circles gathering cows all day and get the even sweat pattern. I think a lot of people tout the dry spots as definite poor saddle fit, (just do a google search on the subject and see) when in fact there may be nothing wrong. I have also seen, as I am sure you have, repeated riding with poor fit and the swelling, pain, then chronically muscle atrophy and white spots. I know growing up on the ranch, you had a saddle and you used it on whichever horse you rode- probably not something I would do with what I know now. Again, I greatly appreciate the reply- I think discussions like this can help inform a lot of people who may not know much about saddle fit,

Chuck

Chuck, I don't necessarily get excited about dry spots. I have spent most of my days riding lots of different horses each day, with maybe 2 or 3 saddles in the tack room. Not always gong to find that perfect fit. If there is no swelling, and the horse is not sore, then dry spots don't bother me. As someone else mentioned previously........it also depends on what you are doing riding that saddle / horse. The saddle I ride my stud horse with fits him great. If you get on and cruise around the country looking at cattle, or work on some dry work in the arena, the sweat pattern will be perfect. If, like I did this morning, though.......you spend some time roping some fast cattle.......up and down in the saddle, leaning this way and that, you know how it goes..............then the hair was a bit ruffled and little drier in the wither pocket area. Just my opinion. JW